Hardywood Park Gingerbread Stout help.

[eulipion2]

Well, Hardywood Park Gingerbread Stout was released last week while I was out of town visiting family, and sold out within hours in most places. Now, a week later, I'm pretty much SOL for finding it, so I thought I'd work on my own recipe. Any help (especially from those who have tried it) would be most welcome. Here's what I've got so far:

From the website:
OG: 1.10
FG: ~1.031 (calculated using OG & ABV)
ABV: 9.2%
SRM: 40 L
IBU: 55

Lactose
Oats
Fresh baby ginger
Wildflower Honey
Vietnamese Cinnamon
Madagascar Vanilla beans

From a quick look at BeerAdvocate reviews I guessed:
Chocolate malt, roasted malt, neutral yeast
Full body, medium carb - mash 150-152 to accommodate lactose?
English (earthy) bittering hops, no flavor addition

So here's my preliminary recipe:
12.5 lb US 2-row
2 lb wildflower honey (5 min)
1 lb Extra Dark Crystal
1 lb Chocolate Malt (US)
1 lb Lactose
1 lb Flaked Oats
2 oz Black Barley

3.25 oz Challenger (7% AA, pellet) - 60 min

2 oz fresh ginger (5 min)
2 tsp cinnamon (5 min)
3 Madagascar vanilla beans (5 min)

3 packs US-05

Mash: 150 for 90 min
Mash-out: 170 for 15 min
Boil: 90 min

BrewTarget gives me
OG: 1.099
FG: 1.025 (probably finish higher)
ABV: 9.7%
IBU: 54.1
SRM: 40.4

I'm concerned that the lactose/chocolate/crystal might be a bit much, but per above, I am shooting for an FG of 1.031 or so, so it might be just right. Also, some of the reviews mentioned a bready, cookie flavor, so maybe some Biscuit or Victory?

 

[MrOH]

I can't remember the name of the greenhouse operation that he works for (been living in Philly too long and he doesn't refer to his job by name, just "the farm") but a buddy of mine works at a greenhouse in the Richmond area that was growing ginger as part of some big study (a lot of interesting stuff going on in ginger agriculture nowadays to hear him tell it), and was selling it as baby ginger. He says its a much gentler, sweeter flavor. Hope this helps. I know they were always at the south of the james farmers market. Sorry I don't remember the name. Lavender something?

 

[eulipion2]

Hardywood gets their ginger from Casselmonte Farms. I think you're thinking of Lavender Fields Herb Farm. I was thinking I might be able to get baby ginger from one of the local Indo-Asian markets, though going straight to the source may be cheaper.

 

[MrOH]

Yep, that's the place. Apparently, there is some sort of rot that has been affecting ginger crops worldwide except for rhizomes coming from Hawaii. It's too temperate in VA for it to mature properly, so that's why you only get the baby ginger from local growers. Some University is studying the effects of growing ginger in greenhouses in more temperate areas, which is how Lavender Fields got in on it. Paid for a new greenhouse for them, either way.

 

[MrOH]

If you're a member of JRHBs, talk to Andy (the guy with all the tats that does the food and beer pairing presentations). I know he does some stuff at Hardywood, and he knows the local growers, as well.

 

[eulipion2]

If you're a member of JRHBs, talk to Andy (the guy with all the tats that does the food and beer pairing presentations). I know he does some stuff at Hardywood, and he knows the local growers, as well.

Ooo, thanks for that. I'll have to hit him up at the December meeting.

 

[CoopersGoose]

I'm going to give this a shot tomorrow as my first brew since around 2002. Shake the rust off in a big way I suppose. Question, why three packs of US-05? Would a yeast starter suffice based on OG, or am I going to regret this.

 

[eulipion2]

First off, good luck on the brew! Let me know how it goes, and if you've tried Gingerbread Stout, let me know how it compares. This was my first shot on this, but I haven't brewed it yet, so I have no help to offer, especially on the spicing. I thought 3 packs of US-05 because I don't make starters, and wanted to make sure I had adequate yeast. You could definitely make a starter.

 

[brewbeerry]

am very interested in how this comes out, have 2 bottles of Gingerbread Stout that I will savor as things wind up for winter break. may brew this recipe in january when i get back from xmas. good luck!

 

[CoopersGoose]

Just wrapped up the mash/sparge/wort boil process for the Hardywood Gingerbread Stout clone. Not sure how it's going to go, keeping my fingers crossed. Here's the process used.

Mashed all grains in 3.9 gal water - 148-154F for 180 min (tincture of idodine test confirmed conversion)
Mashed out at 170F for 15 min
Sparged with 7.8 gal water at 170F
Total volume of wort - ~7.5 gal
Brought to boil - added lactose
30 minutes in added hops
15 minutes left added honey, cinnamon, vanilla and garlic
10 minutes left added Irish moss, wort chiller

Transferred to primary at 78F, allowed to settle ~30 min, pulled OG - 1.090.
Good flavor - bit hoppy at this stage, and a lot of troob!
Pitched starter yeast at 76F.
Fingers crossed!!!

We'll see how the fermentation is going tomorrow.

BTW - grabbed a few bottles of the original stuff to compare to. Keeping my expectations in check.

 

[eulipion2]

How's this going so far, CoopersGoose? What yeast did you use?

I'm going to save my pennies and brew this one, much like my Three Philosophers clone I've been sitting on for two years. Or better yet, I'll write the recipes, let others brew and perfect them, and brew the final version!

 

[CoopersGoose]

I've got a nice video of the new baby, I'll try to upload. I used Wyeast 1056 that was used to create a yeast starter. Thing took off very well. Pitched yeast around 10:00 pm, next morning it was rockin, at 6:00 pm the video was taken. Hope the yeast doesn't tire out. This has got some serious sugar in it.

Going to leave this in the primary for at least 3 weeks, possibly 4. Only reason I might throw into secondary is getting another batch going. Heard mixed things on the forum regarding racking to secondary. Most say it's not necessary, others for high gravity beer prefer. We'll let you know.

FYI - I picked this recipe over another one because it was all grain and would save me some coin on grain bill. Wife paid for honey which she complained about, but if she likes it, I can chalk it up to her contribution!

Send me email and I'll throw over the .mov. [email protected]

 

[eulipion2]

Just emailed. I would say to leave it in primary for four weeks at a minimum. Secondary/bulk aging might not be a bad idea, though if you're going to keg it you could age it in the keg after a four-week primary.

 

[eulipion2]

So, I'm looking into "Biscuit-type malts." Briess has Victory, Special Roast, and Extra Special Roast. They recommend Extra Special for dark, high-gravity beers, but I'm wondering if the flavors they mention are appropriate for this beer. They say Extra Special will contribuite "Toasted marshmallow, toast, mild coffee, prunes, dry, woody" flavors.

Thoughts? Would either Victory or Special Roast be better suited for the profile of this beer?

EDIT: Or, how about replace the 2-row with Maris Otter? Could still give me biscuity flavors without having to mess with the rest of the grain bill.

 

[GeorgeH]

Did you make this yet? If so, how did it go?

 

[eulipion2]

I haven't yet. CoopersGoose is about 2.5 weeks into his, so hopefully we'll see how his went soon. I have to save up my pennies for ingredients, but hopefully I'll get a little windfall from Christmas.

 

[CoopersGoose]

My batch will be bottled next week. I'm already considering buying ingredients to retry it, as I believe the GBS is one of the best beers created. Tom Leonards carries the exact wildflower honey, and I'm sure I can find the ginger as well. Still have some Hardywood bottles to compare it to. I'll post some feedback next week when I bottle, I'll have a chance to flavor it then.

 

[CoopersGoose]

Ok. Bottled this batch today. Final gravity was 1.024. Initial was 1.090, so we're in the ballpark 9.5% abv or so depending upon calculation used. Flavor was nice. Definitely full body stout, hints of cinnamon, vanilla come through -a little gingerbready. As for aroma, I'm a little disappointed. Could be it needs to age a bit more, but doesn't have that sweet aroma. I'd add some aroma hops next batch. Will have to research what type might be appropriate. Willamette possibly. Some type of spicy aroma hop variety is what I'm thinking. Two weeks from now, or three, I'll post some taste results.

Who's next? Let me know how ur quest is going!

 

[eulipion2]

I think you'll get better aroma once carbonated. The CO2 will help lift the aroma from the glass to your nose. How does the flavor compare so far? Close to the original?

 

[CoopersGoose]

Flavor was close to the GBS. Wouldn't say it was an exact match, but definitely has the same character. Not so much gingerbread notes, but my ginger was of poor quality, it was what was available. I'll seek out the baby ginger if this beer even has the potential i think it will. Next batch will use more precise ingredients. Also, I do believe some aroma hops would be nice to refine it a bit more. Since you live in Richmond, if it passes my initial tasting, I'll save you a six pack, maybe trade for something you've got available?

B

 

[Ctayl9jq]

Let me know how this turns out, I have a couple bottles of the gbs and the burboun gbs and it really is an awesome beer.

I brewed a Xmas stout this year that I wasn't trying to imitate the gbs, but he mouthfeel and
grain bill i used seemed close. I then just added cinnamon and vanilla. Ill see if I can find the grain bill but I know I added about a half cup lactose and used Maris otter and some type of biscuit malt

 

[CoopersGoose]

Hardywood GSB Tasting notes.


Before I begin, I must say, for my first beer in 7+ years, this turned out pretty well. Primary fermenter for 4 weeks at 70F, bottled with 1-1/4 cups DME. Bottle conditioned for 3 weeks (20 days) at 65F. Threw one in freezer for 20-30 minutes to test. First, I'd say it would be categorized better as an imperial stout vs a gingerbread milk stout. Head from pour is nice and thick, and stays around a while. It has a nice aroma with a hint of vanilla. The body is full, but not quite as big as the Hardywood GBS. From a taste standpoint, it has a nice chocolate flavor, slightly sweet, but not as sweet as the GSB. No strong gingerbread cookie flavor, but this is pretty good. While you can tell its got some alcohol in it, it's balanced, no strong alcohol flavor, but now on my second for the night, I can tell it packs a punch.

So what to do differently? Possibly use Briess malt or Belgium biscuit malt to impart more biscuity flavor. Swap out store bought honey for bearer farms honey (Tom Leonard's has it), as well as utilize casselmont farms baby ginger. Increase ginger to 6 oz. increase vanilla and cinnamon amounts as well. One other thing, not as sweet as GSB, so might increase lactose as well. I'll post my modified recipe once I run through beersmith.

Serve at 55F, as flavors definitely more pronounced as it warms. Will be interesting to see how this ages.

 

[eulipion2]

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback. What was your FG? Based on the OG and ABV from the Hardywood website, it seems like they finish around 1.031.

Based on your observations I'm thinking change the base to Maris Otter (malty, biscuit/toast flavor), mash a few degrees higher (fuller body, a little sweetness), and up the spices all around. Some Biscuit or Special Malt might be in order.

I think a higher mash temp and increased ginger and vanilla will help give the impression of sweetness you say is missing. Additionally, I've been told they add their honey to secondary, which would help preserve the honey flavor and aroma, also giving the impression of sweetness.

 

[CoopersGoose]

Final gravity was 1.024. It's good, but not close enough for my liking. Here's my next go round.

Biscuit Malt 14.5 lbs
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 120L - 1 lb
Chocolate Malt - .75 lbs
Black Barley - 0.125 lbs
1.5 lbs lactose
6 oz ginger root - 15 minutes
0.33 oz (3 sticks) Cinnamon - 5 minutes
1.5 lbs Honey
Challenger 3.0 oz

Mash at 156F for 90 minutes
Boil 90 minutes.

We'll see how this turns out.

 

[eulipion2]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Biscuit could be used as a base malt.

 

[MadGus]

Perhaps cooper meant Maris Otter? I'm planning my next brew, and am probably going to give this a shot.

 

[CoopersGoose]

I was under some serious meds earlier for some dental work. Tried to post before I left. I'd change the grain bill to use 10% biscuit the rest Maris otter or other suitable grain. Increasing the mash temp should result in more full bodied beer, which would help as well. The initial beer is good, but its not close enough to the GSB. It's lacking the sweetness, and gingerbread character mostly. Suppose I have to suffer a while and drink this high alcohol, very tasty stout until I have a chance to try again. I also have a blonde ale about to hit the secondary. Should tap that soon as well. Have a good weekend all. I'll repost my proposed recipe this weekend.

 

[eulipion2]

Thanks for the feedback, CG. Sorry it wasn't closer, but at least it's still tasty! I hope to try it. (James River Homebrewers meeting Wednesday, February 13, 6:30 @ Mekong )

For the vanilla beans, did you cut them or add them whole? Cinnamon sticks (whole or cracked?) or powder?

I'll revise this based on your input and (God willing I find a job) make this my next brew.

 

[CoopersGoose]

First off for the 1st beer in 7+ years, this beer is pretty good. It was risky shaking off the rust with such a big beer, but I'm glad I aimed high. This beer seems to get better with age. It's been almost 4 weeks in the bottle, and it seems the flavors are beginning to meld more each time I open a bottle. There's more cinnamon aroma and flavor now, with a hint of vanilla. The ginger seems to be making a small presence as well. I hope there is some left 4-6 weeks from now to see how it tastes then, but I wouldn't bet on it.

As for the questions, I used whole sticks of cinnamon and whole vanilla beans. Diced up the ginger and boiled all with wort, then strained from the pot into fermenter. I have a recipe I modified on beersmith, I'll try to post this weekend. It uses a mixture of malts, Vienna, Maris otter and biscuit, and ups the maltose a bit as well as flavor additives. Did cut back on honey, but like the idea of adding to fermenter. Only concern there is would probably want to pasteurize somehow.

Maybe I'll hit the jrha meeting feb. it I do, I bring Epuillon a few to try.

Later all.

Bottles 4 wks - Goose's Gingerbread Stout v1
Secondary - Twin Blonde's Ale
Future - Kiltless Scotch Ale

 

[CoopersGoose]

Sorry for the mis-spelling Eulipion, from now on just referring to you as E!