Hard Cider won't start fermenting!!

[ANewrBrewr]

Ok I'm at a loss on this one, so maybe some cider experts can help me out.....

I picked fresh apples from my apple tree in the back yard and juiced them to get about 6 gallons worth of juice. I tossed in 5 crushed campden tablets to the 6 gallons of juice and let it sit around with a foam stopper for about 30hrs. I also added pectic enzyme a few hours prior to pitching the yeast. I pitched regular SA-05 ale yeast and added yeast nutrient and energizer. Waited for 3-4 days and nothing happened. On day 5 (after nothing happening, no airlock movement or change in gravity) I added a pack of Brewers Best new Cider House yeast. Now it's been 30hrs since the new yeast and still nothing!!!! My O.G. is 1.050 my temps are steady at 74F! What is going on here!!! How is it possible that this thing is not fermenting? It seems as though I have done everything correctly! Juicing 150lbs of apples was not an easy task and if it was all for nothing I'd be very sad. Thanks in advance for anyone that can help.

 

[Dudest]

Check SG and compare it to og you probably have a leak and it has been fermenting. When I do cider I rehydrate the yeast.

 

[porterpounder]

That sounds really strange. The only thing I can think of it to check the pH of the must. It may be too low for the yeast to tolerate.

 

[j1n]

have you confirmed with a hydrometer that its not fermenting? It doesn't create krausen like fermenting beer does. Could also have a leak if no airlock activity.

 

[ANewrBrewr]

pH is around 3.6 (which from what I've read is a correct range). I have checked the gravity and it has actually gone up a bit, I'm guessing from the pectic enzyme releasing more sugars?? It's in one of the new big mouth plastic bubblers and I've never had air leak issues in the past (although no change in gravity makes that a moot point). I rehydrated the first yeast, but just sprinkled on the second one. Would the campden tablets be causing this?

Thanks for the quick replies!

 

[porterpounder]

You didn't use too many tablets, but that seems to be the only thing that would make sense. I'm going with terrorist plot.

 

[ong]

Were these yeast packets you recently purchased? Any chance they were mishandled?

All I can think of is maybe grabbing a 1l bottle of commercial juice, pitch yeast in that as a starter, then pitch the starter at high krausen.

 

[bernardsmith]

I have no idea why there is no yeast action. My solution however, would be to treat this as a stalled fermentation. I would whip the bejesus out of the juice to get air into the must and see if that helps. If there is no action after 24 hours I might modify what Ong suggests and start a new batch with store bought juice (preservative free). Could be a quart or a third of a gallon. When that has begun to ferment I would then pour the same quantity of the stalled batch into the active batch and allow that to ferment 2 or 3 hours. If that is still rapidly fermenting I would double this quantity from the stalled batch and allow that to ferment 2 or three hours. If that is still fermenting I would add the remainder.

 

[ANewrBrewr]

The yeast packets (dry) were stored properly and the Cider House yeast was fresh off the truck from my LHBS (I actually waited around for it to arrive). I don't have a fancy air setup system, but I do have a fishtank airpump and some 1/4" hose. Could I just sanitize the hose plug one end and use a needle to make many small holes as a diffuser and pop that into the carboy? The only other yeast I have on hand is nottingham that yeast likes lower temps than 74F would that be worth making a starter with?

At what point should I be worried about spoilage? Will the campden tablets keep it clean? Its' going on a week now with no fermentation.....if this was beer I'd be very concerned

Thank guys this forum never fails!

 

[ong]

I dunno, I'd be a little worried about spoilage, too. Have you been tasting as you pull your gravity samples? If it still tastes good, I think you're fine.

 

[bernardsmith]

I dunno, I'd be a little worried about spoilage, too. Have you been tasting as you pull your gravity samples? If it still tastes good, I think you're fine.

Unless the yeast you added was damaged in transport or was already stricken by the producer then whatever is preventing that yeast from letting rip will likely prevent any volunteer fungi or contaminating bacteria from getting a toe hold. A silly question but do you spray your apples/ apple trees with anything to act as an insecticide?

 

[ong]

Or a fungicide, especially copper or sulfur!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[ANewrBrewr]

UPDATE-- No the tree has never been sprayed with anything, it's lucky if it gets water, lol. So it's hop harvest season and I've been busy picking hops in the greenhouse, so I wasn't able to make a starter or add an oxygen, however upon inspection late last night I notice a film of small bubbles forming on the top and the airlock finally has some activity!!! All right!!! So my only guess was that my first package of yeast was not the best and the second package of (cider yeast) had a 40hr lag phase. So after waiting 7 days this thing is finally rolling! Thanks for all of the replies, I'll post an update in a month or two letting you know how the quality turned out for those that care.
Cheers!

 

[ong]

Awesome, glad all your apple picking was not in vain!

 

[MindenMan]

Actually, at some level we all care. Even though it may seem someone else has already made a post like your experience, post it anyway. Reason being, until we have our experience written down, we sometimes can't figure out what may have gone wrong for ourselves. I made a post yesterday that I had completely thought out prior to typing. After I started to read it, I realized I hadn't thought it all out.

Glad to hear your fermentation has started, is would have been a terrible waste of juice otherwise.

 

[ANewrBrewr]

So it seems I now have a clear understanding of this "rhino farts" situation! Man this thing smells like I shoved a corpse in my closet! Also I've read a few people say they have not had luck getting cider to start with an ale yeast. Has anyone successfully fermented cider with sa-05 with no starter? What are the best options for backsweeting? Should I use lactose? Some people say they add campden tablets again before bottling....how would you get carbonation if you add campden tablets before bottling? I'm assuming they were talking about wine or a still cider.

On a side note my Mango Saison just took gold last night at the Colorado State Fair!! <-- Sorry couldn't resist a little boasting! Cheers!

 

[gratus fermentatio]

It's a bit late for your current batch, but for future reference, you didn't mention aerating the must. This could've been a factor with such a long lag phase. Yeast need oxygen in the beginning; by not areating, you deprive them of an ample supply of O2 & this would slow them down. All that is needed for good aeration is a good stirring of the must before yeast pitch. Also, always rehydrate your yeast before pitching, even if the packet says to just sprinkle the dry yeast onto the surface. You might want to try to lower the temp after the start of fermentation. Yeast actually generate heat during fermentation & the must temp can be as much as 10* warmer than the ambient temp. 74*F. is pretty warm for most fermentations & could cause some off flavours in your cider. Always try to ferment at the low end of the recommended temp range.

Glad your cider has taken off, good luck!
Regards, GF.

 

[Maylar]

Also I've read a few people say they have not had luck getting cider to start with an ale yeast. Has anyone successfully fermented cider with sa-05 with no starter?

I haven't used SA-05 but Nottingham ale yeast is probably the most widely used cider yeast. Rehydrated it'll start bubbling in a few hrs. Sprinkled into cold juice it takes a day or 2.

What are the best options for backsweeting? Should I use lactose? Some people say they add campden tablets again before bottling....how would you get carbonation if you add campden tablets before bottling? I'm assuming they were talking about wine or a still cider.

Use campden and k-sorbate only if you want still cider, or force carbonate. There are lots of threads here about back sweetening.

On a side note my Mango Saison just took gold last night at the Colorado State Fair!! <-- Sorry couldn't resist a little boasting! Cheers!

Congrats.

 

[podz]

So it seems I now have a clear understanding of this "rhino farts" situation! Man this thing smells like I shoved a corpse in my closet!

That is a very clear indication that the yeast is lacking a sufficient level of nutrients. Which is also most likely the reason why it took so long to get started. It's still not too late to add some, but do it very slowly or you will create the evil twin of Old Faithful.

 

[podz]

It's a bit late for your current batch, but for future reference, you didn't mention aerating the must. This could've been a factor with such a long lag phase. Yeast need oxygen in the beginning; by not areating, you deprive them of an ample supply of O2 & this would slow them down. All that is needed for good aeration is a good stirring of the must before yeast pitch.

Pouring the juice into a demijohn through a funnel generally provides a sufficient level of aeration. At least it Works For Me (tm).

Also, always rehydrate your yeast before pitching, even if the packet says to just sprinkle the dry yeast onto the surface.

To be honest, I've tried both ways with the same yeast and didn't notice any time difference from pitching to blop blop blop. So, I never bother with rehydrating any more.

I really think the key issue here is a simple lack of yeast nutrient. Another thing that can happen is that the high krausen can leave a lot of yeast stuck above the must line after it has dropped and that can certainly slow things down a lot. Swirl the demijohn a few times to rinse the residue back into the must and off she goes.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Guess I should read the entire thread before posting.
I think you hit the nail on the head Podz.
Regards, GF.

 

[Jon_Robb]

Definitely don't overlook leakage. I went searching this morning for a similar problem. I am definitelyt a noob and I am using a 6 gallon bucket as a primary. Bot a 5 gallon big mouth as a secondary. But I pressed lightly on the primary lit and it bubbled so I discounted leakage. .After going through all the other options I decided It was my mistake for not taking my reading glasses to the store and got the wrong kind of juice. I was about to dump it and start over but when I opened it I saw that it was clearly active and resealed the lid and bubble away it it did. Glad I didn't dump it all.

 

[buMbLeB]

Definitely don't overlook leakage...

Do you think he's still mulling it over?