Hard Cider, dead yeast?

[GameReaper88]

I started a 5 gallon batch of hard cider and a 1 gallon batch.

5 gallon batch consists of 5 gallons of apple cider, 4 pounds of brown sugar, and 1 package of safale-05.

1 gallon batch is a bit under 1 gallon of cider (I was thirsty) 1 pound of brown sugar, cinimon, nutmeg, and a quarter packet of ale yeast ...

Anyway, it has been 26 hours now and the 3 piece air lock on the 5 gallon hasnt seem to have moved one bit.

The 1 gallon batch seems to have positive pressure, but not much, all the water in the S-lock has shifted to one side... but no bubbling to speak of.


Is the yeast dead? Wrong yeast? Whats going on here.
I pitched the yeast when the cider was 75 F
The house has been consistantly 72 F

Its my first shot at cider.

 

[roadymi]

Have patience young grasshopper

 

[Walking_Target]

Did you make a starter for your yeast? Makes an absolutely *huge* difference when starting your fermentation up.

I recently started a similar batch

~10L of Rosemont brand tinned apple juice (roughly 3g)
1kg Dark Brown Sugar (roughly 2.2 lbs)
7ml Yeast Nutrient (diammonium phosphate and B12 complex)

my starter consisted of about 10g of Nottingham Ale Yeast started in aprox 250ml of juice with a pinch of the yeast nutrient. I started this overnight and though most of the next day, it formed a nice foamy krausen and a small yeast cake.

Once pitched, this took about 4 hours to start bubbling, and yesterday evening I needed to add a blowoff to the carboy.

 

[dinnerstick]

26 hours?? patience indeed. as long as your juice didn't have preservative (ie sorbate) and the year on your yeast packet is four digits and starts with a 2, it will go. can't hurt to make a starter but i never do

 

[GameReaper88]

as long as your juice didn't have preservative (ie sorbate)

Its like... the only other ingredient... Potassium Sorbate.
And it was pasteurized (which I ignored because I figured we were avoiding pasteurization only because when unpasteurized it results in better flavors etc.)

So... Im screwed then? (Insert smiley banging his head into a wall)

 

[Walking_Target]

Its like... the only other ingredient... Potassium Sorbate.
And it was pasteurized (which I ignored because I figured we were avoiding pasteurization only because when unpasteurized it results in better flavors etc.)

So... Im screwed then? (Insert smiley banging his head into a wall)

Yes and no....

You can ferment it, but it's gonna require more than just pitching dry yeast.

This is the time to break out proper yeast nutrient and energizer (or a combo product of both) You should add diammonium phosphate and commercial yeast nutrient. You can generally find these pre-blended.

Then you want to make a hefty starter culture.

I suggest starting with more apple juice (preferably tinned pasteurized juice without sorbate) and a pinch of yeast nutrient. do about 2 cups (500ml) of juice and add 2 or 3 packets of your yeast. I use a mason jar with a 2 part lid, but anything you can more or less airlock is good. Shake the crap out of it, leave it in a warm place overnight, then shake again in the morning, pitch in the evening.

You'll probably need to pitch again later on too.

Potassium Sorbate inhibits fermentation, but it can't knock down an already active fermentation. The best way around this is simply to 'overpower' the effects of the preservative.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

From another post ...

"Potassium Sorbate is not very practical to remove ... although it *can* be done ... ugly ... impractical ... but possible.

Jack Keller notes a method of potassium sorbate removal that involves making a very strong starter of *bread* yeast and adding that to your must ... then, after it’s fermented out it will have consumed the pot sorbate ... rack and re-add a starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use.

Those who have tried it used a starter and then added a teaspoon or two of bakers yeast for three additions, each 8 hours apart to the must to get the removal process started."

 

[GameReaper88]

This is the time to break out proper yeast nutrient and energizer (or a combo product of both) You should add diammonium phosphate and commercial yeast nutrient. You can generally find these pre-blended.

Then you want to make a hefty starter culture.

I suggest starting with more apple juice (preferably tinned pasteurized juice without sorbate) and a pinch of yeast nutrient. do about 2 cups (500ml) of juice and add 2 or 3 packets of your yeast. I use a mason jar with a 2 part lid, but anything you can more or less airlock is good. Shake the crap out of it, leave it in a warm place overnight, then shake again in the morning, pitch in the evening.

You'll probably need to pitch again later on too.

With the nutrient and phosphate, how much am I adding directly to the batch itself, or am I mixing with the starter culture?

How much later would I need to pitch again?


... this is what I get for thinking it would be so much more simple than making beer.

 

[Yooper]

I've never had any luck overcoming sorbate and having a successful fermentation, but I've only been making wine and cider for 10 years so maybe someone else has better advice than I do. Sorbate keeps yeast from reproducing, and works as a strong preservative. In theory, if you pitched enough yeast that the yeast wouldn't have to reproduce then the yeast should be able to overcome the sorbate. In practice, though, that's nearly impossible- plus then you'd have the flavor issues from the yeast not growing and reproducing.

If you decide to do this, please report back with your results!

 

[Walking_Target]

Potassium Sorbate doesn't *kill* yeast. It acts in a similar fashion to Furan-2 or Tri-Sulfa with bacteria - they inhibit the growth of new bacteria but do not kill the current generation. Enough yeast will metabolize the sorbate.

From Wikipedia:

Some molds (notably some Trichoderma and Penicillium strains) and yeasts are able to detoxify sorbates by decarboxylation, producing 1,3-pentadiene. The pentadiene manifests as a typical odor of kerosene or petroleum.[6]

Too much sorbate may make for nasty odors though

 

[GameReaper88]

On a side note, I left my shopping list at home and bought Calcium Carbonate (chalk) (by mistake)
This probably isnt going to do me any good with this is it?
I got the yeast nutrient and the energizer though. Starting the starter (ha) tonight.

 

[GameReaper88]

Using a starter on the large batch didnt do a thing, I am also pretty sure the small one is also doomed.
Since I added all the sugar in the beginning there is no way this stuff is drinkable now, even though I am pretty sure it hasnt gone bad.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

After poking around, I'm not sure if most common yeasts would metabolize the sorbate. There are some that specifically do ... but they seem to be pretty uncommon. IF there was any chance at all from a standard or bakers yeast culture being used, it would have to be a massive, virulent culture (like my previous post suggested).

The following is pretty much just academic, as I don’t think detoxifying sorbates is that common a problem, but for what it's worth ...

The yeasts that are known for their ability to “detoxify” sorbates, that were alluded to in Walking Target’s post quoting Wikipedia, are primarily Debaryomyces hansenii and also those in the genus Zygosaccharomyces.

Using bakers yeast was based on a recommendation by Jack Keller, though though the only connection I could find between bakers yeast and Zygo was their similar use in an unrelated chemical reaction involved in ketone reduction in the pharmaceutical industry; but not having to do with sorbates.
Never tried sorbate removal such as that myself, but some accounts seem to suggest that other's have. Mongo don't know.
Anyway ...

Zygosaccharomyces is well known to commercial and large scale vintners as a wine spoilage yeast, and one that you would never intentionally introduce into your winery. If you get it into your equipment (etc) it’s a huge pain to get rid of / sanitize/ sterilize. (e.g. alcohol 70%>, plus steam treating)

The same “qualities” of standing up to potassium sorbate is what also makes Zygo so ugly. You can’t stop it with sorbates ... and it is tolerant of SO2, various acids, and tolerates alcohol up to around 18%, it can survive in high salt solutions, and in some cases survives without oxygen.
The most common Zygo version available is Zygosaccharomyces Rouxii and is the yeast commonly known for it’s use in making traditional soy sauce.
All in all ... not an option.

As for the other yeast known for it’s ability to metabolize potassium sorbate ... Debaryomyces hansenii, it is (as far as I know) a much less problematic yeast, and is in fact one used in cheesemaking because it also stands up to salt so well.
It is considered a spoilage yeast in some foods but not in wine as it is an “obligate aerobe” i.e. needs oxygen.

In any regard, either one of these will produce the metabolite pentadiene and result in unpleasant “petroleum” odors in wine.

Not sure about the bakers yeast producing pentadiene.
I think you’d probably get off flavors or odors somehow in that case though too. Doesn't sound too hopeful.

 

[GameReaper88]

Very interesting.
Tomorrow I will bury the cider at sea. AKA the toilet.