hard apple cider very active in secondary

[khaos]

Hey guys im a first time cider brewer and had this batch going now since the 14th of jun moved to secondary on the 17th of jun its a 2.5 gal batch my fermentables was 2 lbs of reg table sugar with a sg 1.082 upon moving to secondary the gravity was at 1.038 ( needed fermenter for my pumpkin ale) two days ago checked again gravity was at 1.020 so added 4 cinnamon sticks broke into and 5 whole clove and now this is happening.. see photo . Used a muntons std ale yeast and temp in ferment fridge is at 66 to 67 should i worry or is this normal activity

 

[cyberlord]

3 days primary is not long enough. For cider just let it ferment in the primary until it's clear or nearly so. This could take a month or so depending on temperature. It's not like beer where it'll ferment in a weeks time.

Also more importantly you're going to want to move the batch into smaller vessels. That is way to much headspace. Once the active ferment slows down the cider will begin to take up oxygen which is a bad thing. You want as little surface to air contacting.

Cider will ferment as dry as the yeast will take it so 1.020 is not finished. It's still fermenting and that is causing the activity. Perfectly normal, yes.

I'll add that I think 5 cloves in 2 1/2 gallons is too much. 1 per gallon is about as much as I'd want in there, so 2 cloves. It will overwhelm the apple and cinnamon flavors.

 

[khaos]

Yeah i been thinking about the headspace and just ordered a 3 gal better bottle should be here thursday and hopefully that be soon enough to get that away from all them cloves before i have clove flavored cider lol

 

[khaos]

little update on my cider! Cyberlord i rack it off to a smaller bottle ..the new better bottle seen in photo! and its just as happy as can be now. That new 3 gal BB is crazy looking isn't it

 

[Yooper]

It still needs to be topped off when fermentation stops/slows!

 

[roadymi]

It still needs to be topped off when fermentation stops/slows!

Yooper.....this leads to something I've been wondering. If in this or similiar conditions it finsishes with this much head space. Does it need to be topped off right away as long as airlock isn't disturbed. It seems to me that the co2 has pushed out the o2 and that it can't get oxidized as long as it is not disturbed? No big deal just something I've been wondering.

 

[peter78]

roadymi, I've been wondering the same. I think that as long as the airlock hasn't been disturbed it shouldn't matter.

 

[Yooper]

For a short time, it doesn't matter. But eventually it does.

Even with much co2 production, it's never 100% co2 in the headspace. Topping up (or purging with argon or co2 every so often) should be done when fermentation stops or slows significantly to prevent oxidation.

 

[khaos]

Yoopers by topping off do you mean add my apple juice on top after it has fermented out

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Yoopers by topping off do you mean add my apple juice on top after it has fermented out

Adding apple juice is what I would do. It is sanitary in the jug, so you wouldn't have to boil it before adding it like water. Don't top all the way up at once. Your CO2 will collect on the walls of your BB near the top and make your level rise a little.

 

[Yooper]

Yoopers by topping off do you mean add my apple juice on top after it has fermented out

I usually use a "similar wine" or cider, since adding fresh juice would kick start fermentation again. Which would necessitate another racking when it's done, which would necessitate topping off again. And so on. If you don't have any already finished cider, some juice will do.

If I'm making a 3 gallon batch, I always make more like 4 gallons in the primary and then use any extra in a growler with a stopper and airlock for topping up. It's too late now, but for next time that can help. The BB 3 gallon carboy holds quite a bit more than 3 gallons also, so I always make more than 3 gallons.

Here's a (not very great) photo of some of my wines/ciders on racking day:

You can see where they are topped off to.

 

[khaos]

alright i will go pick up another bottle in the morning and add it in then. would i be safe putting in atleast a half gal or 2 qts being it is only a 3 gal

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Sorry ....So im trying to fully understand the cider process.... How do you stop the fermentation so its not too dry? I read somewhere here that racking it to secondary would do that, but it didnt in your case. Why can you top off with cider, but using juice will kick up the fermentation again if both have sugars in them? I thought I had a good enough idea of the process to make a batch but now im second guessing myself after reading this thread.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Sorry ....So im trying to fully understand the cider process.... How do you stop the fermentation so its not too dry? I read somewhere here that racking it to secondary would do that, but it didnt in your case. Why can you top off with cider, but using juice will kick up the fermentation again if both have sugars in them? I thought I had a good enough idea of the process to make a batch but now im second guessing myself after reading this thread.

If you want to halt fermentation early to retain sweetness or back sweeten afterwards you need to add sorbates.

Cider is fermented apple juice, not fresh pressed juice.

 

[roadymi]

For a short time, it doesn't matter. But eventually it does.

Even with much co2 production, it's never 100% co2 in the headspace. Topping up (or purging with argon or co2 every so often) should be done when fermentation stops or slows significantly to prevent oxidation.

I'm absolutely not trying to be argumentative here.......I just want to understand the process. How does the o2 get in there? CO2 is heavier so I don't understand how under airlock conditions it can be displaced by o2?

 

[khaos]

Roadymi your not the only one confused... i fermented this for 5 days and moved this to secondary.brewed it on the 14th and moved it on the the 19th (typeo in first post) and its been in the secondary for 2 weeks now and most i have talk too said i moved it way to fast which i did but now im thinking cider may not be something i make again being all the adding to moving... i may wind up with vinager in the end of this pain in the butt...lol

 

[Yooper]

I'm absolutely not trying to be argumentative here.......I just want to understand the process. How does the o2 get in there? CO2 is heavier so I don't understand how under airlock conditions it can be displaced by o2?

Well, co2 is heavier that is for sure. But it's never going to be 100% co2 in ANY carboy. Plus due to the Ideal Gas Law, and levels of permeability of plastic (small) and around the bung (again, small), once fermentation slows topping up is recommended. It's not like the co2 "blanket" that is talked about will lay over the cider forever- every gas seeks equilibrium.

A five day primary is fine, and even preferred by many cidermakers. I always rack to secondary when my SG is 1.010-1.020 and airlock then. (I don't airlock my primary unless I have an infestation of fruit flies).

 

[khaos]

Ok yoopers so if i top up with more juice and give it say another 3 to 4 weeks and then rerack it ...should i be good to go?

 

[Yooper]

Ok yoopers so if i top up with more juice and give it say another 3 to 4 weeks and then rerack it ...should i be good to go?

You only need to rack when you have lees about 1/4" thick or so- or after a long period of time if you have less lees. Four weeks is probably way to soon to consider racking again.

 

[roadymi]

Thanks Yoopers for the explanation and I apologize to khaos for the thread hijack.

And Khaos..........don't give up on cider making so quickly........it is so worth it when u get it figured out.

 

[khaos]

Roady: no worries ..i add in 2qts of fresh apple juice this morning which brought up to just right below the neck say half an inch and am going to leave it for awhile and see what happens while i start my pumpkin ale and ipa hopefully by the time there ready to bottle in a month my cider will be ready to rack again

 

[ShadyHoller]

Hi everyone. This is my second post here, and it's essentially identical to my first post, which maybe i added to the wrong thread. My apologies if you run into my question in two places.

So what if I rack cider to secondary when it's at 1.015, and there is still a fair amount of airlock activity, but there's also a lot of headspace? Will the heavier CO2 produced by final stages of fermentation displace the oxygen quickly enough? I don't plan on leaving it in secondary for months and months; I just wanted to get it off the big cake of lees that had formed in the primary. I was afraid it would autolyze and give bad flavors.

If I could rely on CO2 filling the headspace in secondary, it sounds less risky and less messy than introducing a bunch of filler (like marbles or mylar balloons I've seen suggested elsewhere) and I currently don't have the option of splitting this batch up to smaller secondary vessels that would eliminate headspace. I also am reluctant to top off with fresh juice because my starting juice was from my own apples, and I want to keep it that way, without introduction of store-bought juice. That's just a point of pride, so i can say: "Yup, it all came from those trees right there."

Thanks a ton. This website is a tremendous resource for my cider craft, and a tremendous drain on my productivity at work.

 

[julesiecoolsie]

Google directed my question to this thread, which was informative. To answer the question about oxygen entering back into the fermentation chamber (considering that CO2 is heavier than air) - the answer is acetobacters. They may or may not be present in your brew. If they are, they will begin converting alcohol in a brew between 3 - 13% abv quickly. Anything higher than 13% and it's much less likely to happen. Acetobacters convert alcohol into vinegar in an aerobic process, sucking oxygen in. They are also responsible for sourdough bread (same deal, yeast and acetic acid bacteria working together), kombucha, sour beers, and sour wine that much of the Roman public drank in ancient time (vinegar = French for "sour wine").