guess who's now brewing professionally?

CornyKegs 728
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There is a light beer that we keep standard, but I've also got a beer using about equal parts centennial (60 min) cascade (30 min) and saaz (finish) 17 IBU, 3.5%. Still trying to come up with a name.
 
Congrats, that's awesome. I've never heard of such a big system using extract. Those batches must cost a fortune to make using all that extract. How many pounds of extract does a typical batch use?


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I completely missed the extract part. Is it cost effective to brew with extract?
 
I agree that it seems cost prohibitive to use extract but I guess the end result will prove whether it is a solid model.

As for the product, the result is what matters, not the method.

I'm interested in how this goes.

Edited to correct the stupid auto spell.
 
It's not uncommon for smaller places to buy these turnkey extract systems. They don't need a HLT or MT so they save on space, and there is no need to crush and dispose of grain. They qualify as a brewpub for owning a system, and I've read that there are some business and legal reasons why people do this such as qualifying for a liquor license. I'm sure others who are in the business have far better insight...
 
You're using Coopers yeast on a professional scale? This whole operation you've got there amazes me. I would've never thought you could do extract on such a big scale, let alone use coopers yeast.


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ShadyBrewer said:
You're using Coopers yeast on a professional scale? This whole operation you've got there amazes me. I would've never thought you could do extract on such a big scale, let alone use coopers yeast.


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Click to expand...

Coopers is not my first choice, but it's what was on hand. It actually does make a decent brew if used properly. The previous brewer was getting some isoamyl acetate off flavors (banana type) which I initially blamed on yeast selection, but was probably more pitch rate. upped the pitch rate and dropped fermentation temp a bit and cleaned it right up.
 
Congrats!

I'd just like to point out to everyone not every nano brew system is capable of brewing all grain in that volume. When your dealing with a small footprint theres certain hoops you have to jump through. The 200L Braumeister we use has a grain capacity of about 94#. Its just not practical to brew full volume batches without using at least some extracts in most cases. Were constantly tasting to see if we pick up that "twang" but you'd never know we even use extracts unless we told you.
 
There are quite a few places here in Wuhan, China (and probably around the country) that do in-house beer. The "black beer" always tastes the same from place to place, and I suspect that it's this stuff: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.275.wQF7zT&id=10009902011&_u=lkvecgo0371

Yes, those are 30 kilo jugs of pre-hopped LME, and I suspect there are similar jugs for their other beers if I knew where to look. While it's a bit lame when you know what's going on behind the scenes, they still sell better beer in-house than 99.9% of food establishments in the country. If I end up fulfilling my dream of brewing professionally in China, you can be sure I won't be taking that route, but I've spent many an afternoon emptying $2.50 liters and been glad for the opportunity.
 
I'm still not sure this qualifies as "brewing professionally," as the title suggests. To me, this is akin to someone opening up a bakery where they just buy cases of Duncan Hines cake mixes, add the eggs and water, and call themselves a "professional baker" because they're doing it on a bigger scale than most people and got a permit to sell the resulting cakes.

But hey, as long as you're having fun and making money at it, that's all that really matters. Although it probably helps if the beer turns out good, too. ;)
 
kombat said:
I'm still not sure this qualifies as "brewing professionally," as the title suggests. To me, this is akin to someone opening up a bakery where they just buy cases of Duncan Hines cake mixes, add the eggs and water, and call themselves a "professional baker" because they're doing it on a bigger scale than most people and got a permit to sell the resulting cakes.

But hey, as long as you're having fun and making money at it, that's all that really matters. Although it probably helps if the beer turns out good, too. ;)
Click to expand...

Well, there is always going to be a next step that you could also do in house. For example, I know a guy who malts his own grain. Does it make you less of a brewer if you buy premalted? I'd argue no. I don't consider myself less of a homebrewer after leaving my all grain setup back home and just taking an extract system to where we are living now.

I've never really understood the negative attitudes about extract brewing at either a home level or a microbrew level.
 
bwarbiany said:
One of my biases about extract is that it would be tough to replicate a more dry beer, as you don't have control over the mash temp.

Is that bias accurate?
Click to expand...

I'd say how dry are we talking, % of extract in the recipe, and what kind of extract you use. The extracts we use have generally been plain wheat/pilsner and make up a small portion of the recipe. So we still have control over how most of the grain bill is getting mashed. Other sources of sugar and what grains you use also play into it. When you factor it all in finishing below 1.010 is very doable.
 
kombat said:
I'm still not sure this qualifies as "brewing professionally," as the title suggests. To me, this is akin to someone opening up a bakery where they just buy cases of Duncan Hines cake mixes, add the eggs and water, and call themselves a "professional baker" because they're doing it on a bigger scale than most people and got a permit to sell the resulting cakes.

But hey, as long as you're having fun and making money at it, that's all that really matters. Although it probably helps if the beer turns out good, too. ;)
Click to expand...

One of the top cake designers in the Atlanta area used to do just that. My wife worked for her. She'd buy the mix, add I think one or two ingredients not listed on the box, and be done with it. She could have done it from scratch, but it wasn't worth the hassle.

The key to being a cake maker was the design and decorating, not the cake mix. Just like the key to brewing is recipe and execution, not whether you're starting with grain or extract. No need to be elitist over it.
 
dantose said:
Well, there is always going to be a next step that you could also do in house. For example, I know a guy who malts his own grain. Does it make you less of a brewer if you buy premalted? I'd argue no. I don't consider myself less of a homebrewer after leaving my all grain setup back home and just taking an extract system to where we are living now.

I've never really understood the negative attitudes about extract brewing at either a home level or a microbrew level.
Click to expand...
I see no difference, with all the additives we have now days you can make anything you want with extract.
over 1/2 of my beers are extract and I have been all grain brewing for over 15 years

and as far as the dry comment, just add some amylase enzyme and hold the temp during the steeping, just watch those long strings break down
 
bwarbiany said:
One of my biases about extract is that it would be tough to replicate a more dry beer, as you don't have control over the mash temp.

Is that bias accurate?
Click to expand...

There would probably be some specialty beers that required drying in excess of what you could do with normal extract, but I couldn't name a beer, style, or recipe that needed to finish that dry off the top of my head. The bigger factor would almost certainly be yeast selection.

For any specialty cases, I'm sure they have a more fermentable extract available. There wouldn't be anything I can think of that would prevent mashing at that scale or dehydrating the product that would necessarily reduce fermentability levels.
 
I have to agree with you. For the first couple years I did what I came to call recombinent extract. A few different extracts,both wet & dry with various hops at varying times. Clear beer that had nice flavors & aromas.
Eventually,like myself,going partial mash would save money & give more flavors & aromas. Cooper's is a high flocculation yeast that ferments well down to 65F. It's great for a bit of those English ester flavors. US-05 is virtually the same from my experiments thus far. It just gives cleaner flavors minus the fruity esters. WL029 kolsh yeast is what I use for my hybrid lagers,both light & dark. Gives lager like qualities at ale temps of 65-69F. It's not just for kolsh anymore! :mug:
 
bwarbiany said:
One of the top cake designers in the Atlanta area used to do just that. My wife worked for her. She'd buy the mix, add I think one or two ingredients not listed on the box, and be done with it. She could have done it from scratch, but it wasn't worth the hassle.
Click to expand...

Right. But she wasn't a "baker." She was a cake decorator.

Gordon Ramsey is a world-class chef. Do you think Gordon Ramsey would be caught dead using canned pasta sauce in one of his restaurants?

bwarbiany said:
The key to being a cake maker was the design and decorating, not the cake mix.
Click to expand...

Those are elements for a cake decorator. Not a classically trained professional chef/baker.

A real chef/baker doesn't need to rely on a cake mix. Heck, they wouldn't even use someone else's recipe. They'd have the skills, knowledge, experience, and passion to develop their OWN recipes, and they'd be superior to anything you can find on sale in the bakery aisle at the grocery store.

bwarbiany said:
Just like the key to brewing is recipe and execution
Click to expand...

First of all, again, we're talking about not only using someone else's recipe, but ingredients that someone else already processed and even measured out for you to make it foolproof.

Secondly, there's a great deal more skill involved in the initial steps of brewing than there are in the initial steps of baking a cake. With a cake, once you've perfected the recipe (as opposed to just using Betty Crocker's), all you have to be able to do is weigh out some powder and count eggs. With brewing, there's knowing how to treat your water, being able to monitor and adjust mash pH, milling the grain properly, hitting the correct mash temperatures, maximizing extraction efficiency, and so on. If you just let someone else do all that "hard stuff" and you just rehydrate the fruit of all that delicate labour, you're not really "brewing."

I mean, extract brewing is a great way for newcomers to get into the hobby, and it's a lifesaver for people without the time, money, space, desire, or skill to brew from all-grain, but I think it's bizarre to try and run a professional scale brewery that way. Small breweries are supposed to appeal to the counterculture "against-the-grain" crowd who value the passion and creativity that small brewers impart into their beers. If a small brewer is just rehydrating some wort and fermenting it, where's the "craft" in that? Where's the loving dedication to creating something fresh and innovative from the ground up?
 
Why you gotta be the debbie downer Kombat? I'm stoked for the OP. He's getting PAID to make beer, and that makes him a professional. If you like you can tell yourself he's just a "Beer Mixer", but I'm pretty sure nearly every one of us called our first batch an "Extract Brew".
-
There are many places using extract in their commercial systems. Some are all extract, others are partial. Many more use hop EXTRACT, or don't make their Belgian Candi sugar themselves...but that doesn't mean they're not brewing beer.
-
A little less judgment and a little more support are in order IMHO.
-
CONGRATS Dantose!!!!
 
jbaysurfer said:
Why you gotta be the debbie downer Kombat? I'm stoked for the OP. He's getting PAID to make beer, and that makes him a professional. If you like you can tell yourself he's just a "Beer Mixer", but I'm pretty sure nearly every one of us called our first batch an "Extract Brew".
-
There are many places using extract in their commercial systems. Some are all extract, others are partial. Many more use hop EXTRACT, or don't make their Belgian Candi sugar themselves...but that doesn't mean they're not brewing beer.
-
A little less judgment and a little more support are in order IMHO.
-
CONGRATS Dantose!!!!
Click to expand...

:mug:
 
Right tool for the job. You can make great beer with extract, with all-grain or with both. Congratulations Dantose. I'm very happy for you. Kombat, I'm happy for you too. I assume you make beer as well and that brings you joy. So it appears everybody's happy. Let's all RDWAHAHB!
 
Congrats OP. My only misgiving regarding the use of extract is it must put the cost of ingredients through the roof. When you can see drastic savings at the homebrew level, it must really add up when you're talking about 198lbs of extract in one recipe.
 
kombat said:
Right. But she wasn't a "baker." She was a cake decorator.

Gordon Ramsey is a world-class chef. Do you think Gordon Ramsey would be caught dead using canned pasta sauce in one of his restaurants?



Those are elements for a cake decorator. Not a classically trained professional chef/baker.

A real chef/baker doesn't need to rely on a cake mix. Heck, they wouldn't even use someone else's recipe. They'd have the skills, knowledge, experience, and passion to develop their OWN recipes, and they'd be superior to anything you can find on sale in the bakery aisle at the grocery store.



First of all, again, we're talking about not only using someone else's recipe, but ingredients that someone else already processed and even measured out for you to make it foolproof.

Secondly, there's a great deal more skill involved in the initial steps of brewing than there are in the initial steps of baking a cake. With a cake, once you've perfected the recipe (as opposed to just using Betty Crocker's), all you have to be able to do is weigh out some powder and count eggs. With brewing, there's knowing how to treat your water, being able to monitor and adjust mash pH, milling the grain properly, hitting the correct mash temperatures, maximizing extraction efficiency, and so on. If you just let someone else do all that "hard stuff" and you just rehydrate the fruit of all that delicate labour, you're not really "brewing."

I mean, extract brewing is a great way for newcomers to get into the hobby, and it's a lifesaver for people without the time, money, space, desire, or skill to brew from all-grain, but I think it's bizarre to try and run a professional scale brewery that way. Small breweries are supposed to appeal to the counterculture "against-the-grain" crowd who value the passion and creativity that small brewers impart into their beers. If a small brewer is just rehydrating some wort and fermenting it, where's the "craft" in that? Where's the loving dedication to creating something fresh and innovative from the ground up?
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%, and I'm also proud and happy for OP at the very same time. Imagine that, I can feel two things at once ...
 

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