Grainfather!!

[jrcrilly]

I'll take a few of the easy ones and let the heavies handle the rest.

1A the two elements add up to 1600W. You run the smaller one when mashing and both when ramping temp up or boiling.

2 The check valve is above the ball valve. It closes when the hose is disconnected to prevent spraying hot water or wort into the air.

3 The pump inlet filter is there to prevent the pump frpm being clogged by solids.

7. It is easy enough to create a whirlpool with a large spoon. Not as convenient as recirculating through a whirlpool port as I do on the primary brew rig, but doable.

8. The CFC is plenty large enough. The problem folks appear to have when chilling is insufficient flow into the chiller due to clogged filters (or, sometimes, a clogged check valve). I have not experienced these issues so can not address them.

 

[brewman !]

I'll take a few of the easy ones and let the heavies handle the rest.

1A the two elements add up to 1600W. You run the smaller one when mashing and both when ramping temp up or boiling.

2 The check valve is above the ball valve. It closes when the hose is disconnected to prevent spraying hot water or wort into the air.

3 The pump inlet filter is there to prevent the pump frpm being clogged by solids.

7. It is easy enough to create a whirlpool with a large spoon. Not as convenient as recirculating through a whirlpool port as I do on the primary brew rig, but doable.

8. The CFC is plenty large enough. The problem folks appear to have when chilling is insufficient flow into the chiller due to clogged filters (or, sometimes, a clogged check valve). I have not experienced these issues so can not address them.

Thanks for the reply. Lots of information to absorb here.

How does the pump on a GF compare to a common chugger pump ? Does it self prime better ? Is it more or less powerful ?

 

[jrcrilly]

The GF pump is much smaller (and quieter). I would expect it to be able to handle much less head pressure, as they only needed to select one that could handle a couple of feet. Volume is decent but not what a wide-open Chugger can do with 1/2 ID tubing (again, they only needed one that would handle the smaller tubing of the Gfather). It seems plenty large enough for the task at hand.

 

[lewandowski46]

4) There's deadspace under the grainbasket during mash that needs to be accounted for. Handy calculators on grainfathers website for calculating based on grain weight and batch size
6) See 4, check out grainfather's website under calculators
8) The CFC is built to direct transfer hot wort from the grainfather into your fermentation vessel. On a typical brew day i'll recirculate to get the total volume down to say 160*F, then from there direct transfer into the fermenter. You want the output of the CFC to be at the point where the temp of the wort is as pitching temps or pretty much tap temperature if above your target pitch temp. Total recirc and transfer for me is less than 15 minutes
9) The probe is under the grainbasket right next to the port that goes to the pump.
10) Faster heating. I have easily accessible 20amp outlets which could handle 2000 watt elements, wish they gave us that option or the ability to use both the 400 and 1600 elements at the same time.

 

[MilwaukeeBrewGuy]

4)
10) Faster heating. I have easily accessible 20amp outlets which could handle 2000 watt elements, wish they gave us that option or the ability to use both the 400 and 1600 elements at the same time.

Do you think this could be a new feature that is handled by a controller? I don't see why logic couldn't be built into the controller to do this.

 

[lewandowski46]

Do you think this could be a new feature that is handled by a controller? I don't see why logic couldn't be built into the controller to do this.

If I recall, but don't quote me on this, it's physically two separate heating elements. When you switch between mash and normal at the bottom, it's actually moving the circuit between the two elements. I suppose it could be hacked to put the elements in parallel?

 

[skraeling]

If I recall, but don't quote me on this, it's physically two separate heating elements. When you switch between mash and normal at the bottom, it's actually moving the circuit between the two elements. I suppose it could be hacked to put the elements in parallel?

Possibly by rewiring the switch between the two elements perhaps.

 

[brewman !]

This thread needs an index ! Lots of good information in it, but I'll never find it again. I'm on page 130 now.

 

[tjosborne]

Would an overnight mash be possible? I was thinking dough in around midnight, and then mash out and sparge starting around 9 or so.

 

[brewman !]

I got into craft brewing just over 2 years ago and I jumped into the deep end of the pool and went straight to all grain.I built my own mashtun/HLT out of rectangular coolers from Walmart and got a basic 8 gallon kettle.By my 3rd brew I had everything dialed in and was making damn good beer.I spent less than $500 to do this including a stir plate set up and an IC I made.If the Grainfather had been on the market then I would have jumped at it.

I see a couple problems with the GF.

#1 It is going to put the big brewers out of business. Everyone likes good beer. The GF seems to make it so easy to brew that nobody is going to buy bad beer anymore. I'm only half tongue in cheek on this.

#2 We are going to have whole generations of brewers that didn't wander the aisles at Home Depot and Walmart for brewing hardware. How will they ever learn to install a weldless fitting ? Or solder ? Or weld a brewstand ? What will they do with their spare time ?

What brewing stories will they have to tell if they have never boiled over on a coil element stove and had the wort flow down beneath the burners and drip into the stove housing ? Their wives will never experience "that smell" that comes out a few months later... or the experience of having to take the back of the stove off to clean it out.

Or what if they never burnt their fingertips trying to carry a hot brew kettle outside to cool it off in the snowbank ? Or what if they never ran out of propane half way through a boil ? They will have no appreciation of what it takes to brew beer ! Tisk, tisk !

And who is going to support all the cooler companies ? I'm sure that homebrewers single handedly kept some of these companies afloat. Every homebrewer I know has 4 cooler mash tuns of "just the right size" for some particular recipe. Funny when you go to the beach and see a cooler with a hole in the side... plugged ! You know where that cooler has been !

I started brewing in 1996 with a copy of Dave Miller's book and a mash tun made from 5 gallon pails. The false bottom was 1 pail with 2 hundred small holes drilled in it. I mashed on the stove top with a slow acting candy dial thermometer, praying not to scorch or overshoot. Boiled in a canner. Cooled in a snowbank. Pitched dry yeast because LHBS didn't have any liquid yeast yet. Spent at least an hour dragging all the equipment out in the garage and then 2 hours cleaning it all up. The nearest sink was in the house, 25 yards away. Back and forth, all day long. Mashing was a crapshoot. Dave Miller talked about mash pH, but nobody I knew did anything about it.

But the beer we made was... interesting. There were no craft brewers back then. It was the first time we tasted some of the styles.

How times have changed !

 

[brewman !]

Not to be a bit picker, but this is an advantage of every recirculating eBIAB system of this size. Brew Boss, Colorado, High Gravity, Brau Supply... they can all pack back up into the single kettle for storage. The nature of this design is a small footprint so it's nothing unique to GF.

Actually, many GF advantages I read about in this thread are really just advantages of the generic eBIAB design. Ease/relaxed brew day, set it and forget it, speed, efficiency, ease of cleaning. I have all these same advantages in my generic eBIAB system (but at a fraction of the cost)

Not trying to pick on the GF, and not bashing you fine folks that have chosen to purchase it. But I just had to say something because sometimes these advantages are portrayed as being the exclusive territory of the GF when they're not.

Edit: when I say generic, I mean one comprised of off the shelf parts. I actually own a Brau Supply system.

The thing that draws me to a GF over the generic eBIAB systems is the ability to mash at "normal" mash water ratios and the ability to do a full on fly sparge.

The problem with bag processes is that even when you circulate them you don't get proper flow through the bed. Ditto for systems with mesh mashtuns. And you need to use a lot of water in the mash and probably a very fine grind to get decent efficiency. Sure you can correct for those things, but I feel that sort of brewing isn't the same as traditional 3V brewing with a proper mash tun.

I feel the GF is the best "all in one" system that allows traditional mash tun techniques to be used. There are essentially no tradeoffs.

 

[brewman !]

What new features would you expect? I would think that would be limited to the controller at this point. They cannot increase the wattage on the heating element for UL listings. They could offer a 240V version in the US but not many households have available 240V circuits so the market is limited.

I don't understand why homebrewers are so hung up with getting 240V in the kitchen.

Most kitchens have 240VAC running to a stove/oven/cooktop. Most kitchens have a floor cupboard next to the stove. Pull the stove out and wire a second stove plug with it, hide the new plug in the cupboard. Build a box around the new plug if you are scared. Replace the existing stove breaker with a GCFI breaker of the same amperage. When you want to brew with 240VAC, open the cupboard door and plug in your brewery. Presto, 240VAC, 40A, in the kitchen. How much power did you say you need ?

 

[M0KCE]

Most homes around here have 240 in the kitchen, 240 to the hot water heater and 240 to the laundry room for the electric dryer.

 

[brewman !]

Will the UK model run on North American power, ie 60Hz, 240VAC ?

If the controller isn't used during boil and the UK element is 2500 watts versus 1600 watts, how do the UK brewers control their boil ? Do they use the controller ?

 

[brewman !]

248 pages in about 2 days. My wife says I'm obsessed.

Just did the same sort of thing. I'm sick in bed so I have lots of time to kill and it helps me kill time. I hate being sick.

Lots of good info here.

 

[skraeling]

Just did the same sort of thing. I'm sick in bed so I have lots of time to kill and it helps me kill time. I hate being sick.

Lots of good info here.

any questions i was in the same position till I placed an order for one of my own 2 days ago still waiting for that sweet sweet shipment notification.

 

[brewman !]

Most homes around here have 240 in the kitchen, 240 to the hot water heater and 240 to the laundry room for the electric dryer.

So then why is the US version only 120V ?

 

[brewman !]

Equipment Settings:

1. ​
   Boil Evaporation Rate: 2 qt/hr
2. ​
   Grain Absorption: 0.4 qt/lb
3. ​
   Hops Absorption: 0.05 qt/oz
4. ​
   Kettle Dead Space: 2.8 qt
5. ​
   Misc Losses: 0 qt
6. ​
   Cooling Shrinkage: 4%
7. ​
   Chilling Method: CFC

All Grain Brewing:

1. ​
   Average Efficiency: 80%
2. ​
   Default Mash Thickness: 1.68 qt/lb
3. ​
   Mash Water Unit: Quart
4. ​
   Mash Tun Volume: 31.7 qt

How do you get that ? I measured 10.5" ID x 17" ish deep. 6.37 gallons or so.

 

[brewman !]

What do you do about the air in the keg after pumping the wort from the Grainfather? If you leave it in there do you notice any oxidation? I've been fermenting in kegs for a while now and will not go back to glass. If I could eliminate another piece of equipment (the chiller) from my cleaning process that would be awesome!

There is no need to worry about getting air in the keg when you fill it from the GF. As a matter of fact, you should be aerating your wort going into the primary fermenter for good yeast growth. There is no need to worry about oxidation at all until fermentation slows dramatically or stops. One of the advantages to bottle or keg priming versus forced carbonation is that if you get some oxygen in the bottle when bottling the yeast fermentation will absorb it.

 

[TexasWine]

The thing that draws me to a GF over the generic eBIAB systems is the ability to mash at "normal" mash water ratios and the ability to do a full on fly sparge.

The problem with bag processes is that even when you circulate them you don't get proper flow through the bed. Ditto for systems with mesh mashtuns. And you need to use a lot of water in the mash and probably a very fine grind to get decent efficiency. Sure you can correct for those things, but I feel that sort of brewing isn't the same as traditional 3V brewing with a proper mash tun.

I feel the GF is the best "all in one" system that allows traditional mash tun techniques to be used. There are essentially no tradeoffs.

Just curious, have you tried single vessel BIAB, no sparge, or had a good discussion with an experienced brewer who uses these? I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so here we go.

- There are no advantages to using a water/grain ratio of 1.25-1.5 quarts/lb. In fact, there is evidence out there that suggests optimal conversion occurs with a thinner mash, as one would typically see in no sparge brewing.
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...ity_and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing
- If you so desire, you can use an eBIAB system with lower water/grain ratios.
- With the right equipment, it's easy to get "proper" flow through the grain bed, just like someone who uses the fly sparge technique. Personally, I use LocLine. Distribution through the bed can be checked simply by probing a thermometer around in the grain bed.
- As far as the amount of water in the mash, it's the total volume. I would not classify that as a"lot", and not sure why you would list that as a disadvantage.
- Again, not sure why a fine grist would be a disadvantage. Even so, for a recirculating eBIAB system a fine grist is not recommended. From my reading and experience, it seems that a mill gap in the range of 0.035 to 0.045 works well for most. I'm at 0.040 with brew house efficiency in the 70-75% range.
-You're right, single vessel no sparge brewing is not the same as three vessel brewing. But can I ask two things? Don't list this difference as a disadvantage. Two, don't call it a "proper" mash tun because a different water/grain ratio is used

Trade-offs to the GF?

-Parts are not easily replaceable should they go out. And they will.
-Longer heating times compared to more powerful units.
- It's expensive compared to other similar offerings.
- It's not truly an all in one, i.e. a single vessel system. For many folks, not all, this is a disadvantage because you need to figure out some way to sparge.

Again, not poo pooing anyone who's bought the GF. It just really puts a burr in my saddle when a statement like "The problem with bag processes" is made, only to not list any problems, but instead preferences developed from 20 years of brewing.

 

[singybrue]

Good points, and I totally agree with you @TexasWine!
I have both a recirculating E-BIAB system and a Grainfather, and overall I prefer the E-BIAB.
I have been thinking of selling off the Grainfather, but I have been holding off because I wanted to try it with the new controller. After the last brewday with the GF, I decided I'm done with it.

 

[brewman !]

It just really puts a burr in my saddle when a statement like "The problem with bag processes" is made, only to not list any problems, but instead preferences developed from 20 years of brewing.

Bag brewing doesn't have the same mash chemistry because the enzymes are more diluted and the mash itself is more diluted. Period, end of story. You can make adjustments and try to correct for that, but in the end you can't change that bit of chemistry. It has nothing to do with history. Mash concentration changes everything.

There is a reason that grain was and is first mashed and then sparged in 2 separate processes - it is the optimal way to do it as far as quality goes. The brewing industry isn't stupid. I'm sure that if full volume sparges were optimal in some way the industry would be doing them.

I'll take up EBIAB when I hear that Gordon Strong, Dave Miller and a majority of the NHC medal winners do it. Until then, I want a "normal" mash thickness and I want to sparge. As far as I can tell the Grainfather is one of the easiest ways to brew in this manner.

BTW, sparging with the GF doesn't have to a big time consuming thing. As some have mentioned, cold tap water will do in a pinch. Hot tap water is better and treated water from an HTL is the best. I'd rather do a little sparging than fool around with squeezing a heavy, hot, wet grain bag. To each their own.

FWIW, I agree with your criticisms of the GF and I have a few more of my own to add. I'm not saying it is perfect, just that it is the best there is commercially available at the moment.

 

[Kampenken]

Sorry to quote such an old post, but nobody seemed to pick up on it, so I thought I'd drag it back from the dead...

In case some of the people new to CFCs don't know, COUNTER flow chillers are supposed to be used by running the water in the reverse direction to the wort. The chilling water sound be going in the same end of the CFC as the wort is coming out of.

You'll know if you got this right when the water coming out of the CFC is hot ! Like 180F hot. If you are running the wort slow and have the water flow rate optimized, the wort should come out at near the tap temperature and the water will come out at near the boil kettle temperature.

CFCs are WAY more efficient with the water running in the opposite direction of the wort.

Hey Brewman, the GF was / is my first CFC I used. I did expect the high output temp as you indicate and you do indeed get this result for the first 5 seconds or so, but after that it is not that hot at all. Maybe its flow rate, I am not aware, but haven't heard anyone else's experience here with the CFC on the GF as being different. The bottom line result is that I cool to pitching temps, and do adjust, so why should I be concerned with the cooled water temp? I believe the optimum is too cool to pitch temp as quickly as possible, with water usage and output temp a resultant factor of the goal. Do you agree?

To your point about COUNTER flow, the GF's CFC is built with two connections, the inlet from the boiler standpipe, and the inlet from the cooling water. So its not possible to hook it up in any other manner, i.e. so that it is not counter flow. UNLESS, you suggest that GF has manufactured the CFC incorrectly?

As stated, I have no other CFC experience, so my belief that this is all working as designed, (and correctly), as limited to my results, which are quite satisfactory. Open to thoughts on this.

 

[Kampenken]

I don't understand why homebrewers are so hung up with getting 240V in the kitchen.

Most kitchens have 240VAC running to a stove/oven/cooktop. Most kitchens have a floor cupboard next to the stove. Pull the stove out and wire a second stove plug with it, hide the new plug in the cupboard. Build a box around the new plug if you are scared. Replace the existing stove breaker with a GCFI breaker of the same amperage. When you want to brew with 240VAC, open the cupboard door and plug in your brewery. Presto, 240VAC, 40A, in the kitchen. How much power did you say you need ?

I believe most want plug and brew and not mess with electric. For me, I don't want to limit my brewing to the kitchen (or basement) but also outdoors on my deck when the weather gets nice, not to mention taking the GF to other houses.

Good points, and I totally agree with you @TexasWine!
I have both a recirculating E-BIAB system and a Grainfather, and overall I prefer the E-BIAB.
I have been thinking of selling off the Grainfather, but I have been holding off because I wanted to try it with the new controller. After the last brewday with the GF, I decided I'm done with it.

Maybe I missed your post, but what happened last brew day to be done with it? Those trying to decide could be helped. I like the GF sparge process, I'd not like to sparge a heavy grain bag that I presume if held by hoist or hand (in a teardrop shape) would not sparge as efficiently as the GF sparges, or as neatly.

If TexasWine is right ("it will break") during my brewing career, I will likely invest in the Mash & Boil, if reviews are good. I like DIY (rig up a recirc system, build a CFC), I like the M&B handles!!, and the price is right. I think GF could be in for some competition, but damnit, where are the people reviewing the M&B!! Actually, I should care less and hope that Tex is wrong, long live my GF! :fro:

 

[brewman !]

Hey Brewman, the GF was / is my first CFC I used. I did expect the high output temp as you indicate and you do indeed get this result for the first 5 seconds or so, but after that it is not that hot at all. Maybe its flow rate, I am not aware, but haven't heard anyone else's experience here with the CFC on the GF as being different. The bottom line result is that I cool to pitching temps, and do adjust, so why should I be concerned with the cooled water temp? I believe the optimum is too cool to pitch temp as quickly as possible, with water usage and output temp a resultant factor of the goal. Do you agree?

To your point about COUNTER flow, the GF's CFC is built with two connections, the inlet from the boiler standpipe, and the inlet from the cooling water. So its not possible to hook it up in any other manner, i.e. so that it is not counter flow. UNLESS, you suggest that GF has manufactured the CFC incorrectly?

As stated, I have no other CFC experience, so my belief that this is all working as designed, (and correctly), as limited to my results, which are quite satisfactory. Open to thoughts on this.

There is no overly big rush to cool to pitching temp. Whether it takes 15 minutes or 30 doesn't matter a whole lot, thought the purists will argue that hot standing wort is what forms the precursors to DMS.

I've never used the GF CFC. But the outlet water on the CFCs I've used is basically untouchably hot. If yours isn't I suspect there is something wrong. Maybe the connectors were put on the wrong end at the factory ? Or you could be running the wort too slow/water too fast ? When operated optimally, the ext wort temp should be near the inlet water temp and the exit water temp should be near the inlet wort temp. Make sense ?

 

[brewman !]

If TexasWine is right ("it will break") during my brewing career, I will likely invest in the Mash & Boil, if reviews are good. I like DIY (rig up a recirc system, build a CFC), I like the M&B handles!!, and the price is right. I think GF could be in for some competition, but damnit, where are the people reviewing the M&B!! Actually, I should care less and hope that Tex is wrong, long live my GF! :fro:

I hope your GF works a long time, but he brings up a good point too. The pump could probably be replaced by a chugger, with an improvement in performance. But what about the "boiler" ? I'd like to see what lurks below ? How does one access this thing ?

FWIW, if I owned a GF, I'd be doing some mods, like starting with a calibrated sight glass and an upgraded heating element. If you don't want to go 240VAC, you could use 2 120VAC elements and plug them into different circuits.

I'd also move the temp sensor to the mash bed, where the temperature matters.

 

[Kampenken]

There is no overly big rush to cool to pitching temp. Whether it takes 15 minutes or 30 doesn't matter a whole lot, thought the purists will argue that hot standing wort is what forms the precursors to DMS.

I've never used the GF CFC. But the outlet water on the CFCs I've used is basically untouchably hot. If yours isn't I suspect there is something wrong. Maybe the connectors were put on the wrong end at the factory ? Or you could be running the wort too slow/water too fast ? When operated optimally, the ext wort temp should be near the inlet water temp and the exit water temp should be near the inlet wort temp. Make sense ?

The goal is still to pitch yeast in cool wort. I could wait, but I wish to optimize my time. I'm in no race, but yes there's good reason to move forward as reasonably quickly as possible.

I hear you, but I optimize by attempting to run the wort wide open, which I do when cool water temp is 49F, which then is too cold! I back down the cooling water to hit my wort temp, let's say 65-68. At that temp, the cooling water outlet temp is ~80-100 tops. It could be incorrectly setup (though I have my doubts, as cooling inlet is on wort outlet end. I do understand the notion of the CFC. Maybe its possible that the flow rate of the wort in the size (length of coil, wort diameter, cool water diameter) of the CFC are not optimal. Possibly the CFC coil is oversized given the amount of wort flow?

 

[TexasWine]

Bag brewing doesn't have the same mash chemistry because the enzymes are more diluted and the mash itself is more diluted. Period, end of story. You can make adjustments and try to correct for that, but in the end you can't change that bit of chemistry. It has nothing to do with history. Mash concentration changes everything.

Just to clarify, by "bag brewing" do you mean no sparge/full volume mashing? As far as mash chemistry goes, I am not an expert by any stretch. Matter of fact, I'm not an expert in any of this stuff as it is just a hobby that occupies a portion of my garage, and time. But I would wager that the chemistry is exactly the same, thick or thin, but it's the rate at which it happens that is different.

And I do agree that mash thickness changes things. That's exactly the conclusion the Braukaiser article I linked is supporting.

There is a reason that grain was and is first mashed and then sparged in 2 separate processes - it is the optimal way to do it as far as quality goes. The brewing industry isn't stupid. I'm sure that if full volume sparges were optimal in some way the industry would be doing them.

I agree the brewing industry isn't stupid, but the reason they don't use the no sparge method is something we'll just end up disagreeing on. The reason the commercial brewing industry doesn't use no sparge brewing is a matter economics, not quality of wort. They need to make money, we don't, so things like efficiency, space and speed to market are a big deal to these folks.

On a commercial scale a few percentage points of efficiency can mean big bucks. High efficiency brew houses can achieve 95+% mash efficiency. This will not happen with no sparge. Have you measured your mash efficiency with your 3 vessel system? If you have I would guess that even on a really good day it never goes above 90%.

No sparge brewing also requires larger vessels. Larger vessels are more expensive. Larger vessels also need more space. More space is more money. On a homebrew scale, going from a 10 gallon to a 15 gallon kettle is inconsequential in most scenarios.

I'll take up EBIAB when I hear that Gordon Strong, Dave Miller and a majority of the NHC medal winners do it. Until then, I want a "normal" mash thickness and I want to sparge.

I don't think eBIAB, brewing with electricity and a bag, is really you're hang up. It's the no sparge mash you think is inferior. I will by no means get into a tinkle contest with much more acclaimed brewers than myself, I will say that with no sparge I have garnered some hardware along the way, including a Best of Show in a Pro-Am and enough medals to finish in a very respectable position in the Lone Star Circuit. I've never entered NHC, but maybe this will be motivation to do so

I'd rather do a little sparging than fool around with squeezing a heavy, hot, wet grain bag. To each their own.

Agreed, to each their own. I don't squeeze and the bag isn't heavy, hot, or wet when I handle it. I pull the bag out with a ratcheting pulley, let it drain for 20 minutes or so, then move it to the garbage bag where I dump the grains. Easy peasy, and for me much simpler than trying to sparge.

 

[brewman !]

I pull the bag out with a ratcheting pulley, let it drain for 20 minutes or so, then move it to the garbage bag where I dump the grains. Easy peasy, and for me much simpler than trying to sparge.

GF users can do a decent sparge in 20 minutes. So what is the advantage of BIAB ? One less "vessel" ?

For the record, it is the mash chemistry that bothers me. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Kampenken]

So Brewman, any unanswered questions you have on the GF? I didn't follow if your long list was fully answered, so if you have open questions, maybe I can help close the gap.