Grain sediment pre-boil

[eigua]

Newbie alert! Never done all-grain before and barely have done any extract brewing (twice 5+ years ago). I generally have a decent grasp on the basic processes from reading a lot and watching vids.

I'm having issues with massive sediment from the mash pre-boil. Every time I look up sediment, I read about post-boil break and post-fermentation yeast trub. But I'm having problems with fine grain particles pre-boil. I've done my first 2 all-grain batches in the past week and both times I've gotten this or worse:

This pic is after 12+ hours settling in the refrigerator AND includes several cups of added water to top it off. This was probably > 65% sediment before topping off with water.

This sediment is very fine and seems impossible to filter out. I've tried paper towels, napkins, coffee filters, and a fine mesh metal strainer. The sediment just clings to the water and nothing comes through even after hours of waiting. It's definitely got a lot of sugar mixed in with it though because it's pretty sweet (and slightly bitter even though there are no hops yet). The 2nd batch, I tried to make a makeshift mash tun from an old Pur water dispenser (the kind that has the spout), but the grain also clogged completely on the particulate matter after about 2 cups of clear wort came out.

My mash temps were under control: 148-150 the first time and 150-155 the 2nd (was trying for higher temps on purpose the 2nd time.)

I thought the first time the sediment was the result of my grain being several years old from a kit that was sitting around, but the 2nd run was fresh grain bought from my lhbs a few days ago.

Is this level of fine particulate material a common occurrence in all-grain brewing? How does one deal with it (without having pro equipment)?

 

[JonM]

Have you tried doing a vorlauf?

 

[eigua]

Have you tried doing a vorlauf?

Yes, sort of. That's what I was trying to do with the Pur water dispenser. I didn't run any tubing with holes or anything around the base of the dispenser, but I did recycle the wort until it came out clear. The problem is, it stopped flowing after about 2 cups of clear wort came off. After that, it was just one drop at a time. I waited for a couple of hours but it was clear it was going to take days to get a gallon out at that rate.

So this could just be an equipment issue. I guess I'll have to invest some $ and time into coming up with a better lauter.

 

[pablosbrewing]

My suggestion is just proceed to the boil, you can't precipitate some of break material until you do that.

Clear at vorlauf is really "I can see through a 3/8" or 1/2 plastic tube with no big pieces of grain"

Check out this video for an example at about 3:20 https://youtu.be/JMHLqnWCNjE

 

[eigua]

My suggestion is just proceed to the boil, you can't precipitate some of break material until you do that.

Clear at vorlauf is really "I can see through a 3/8" or 1/2 plastic tube with no big pieces of grain"

Check out this video for an example at about 3:20 https://youtu.be/JMHLqnWCNjE

I actually did boil the first batch last week and I was able to separate the sediment somewhat by filtering for several hours through napkins. It was a pretty miserable process though, plus I had to re-boil it afterwards to make sure it was all sterilized.

Thanks for the link! The portion of my wort that was clear looks just about like his in the video. I don't see anything coming out of his lauder looking anywhere near as cloudy as mine, even when he first started running it.

I really do like his mash tun design though. Using the stainless steel bathroom hose is a great idea. But I would never be making more than 1-2 gallons of beer at a time, so I'd probably have to get a smaller ice chest to make sure there isn't so much air in there that the temps drop during mashing. (My current ice chest is fairly big.)

This second batch isn't actually going to be beer. I'm planning on turning it into a non-alcoholic malt soda basically. I boiled it for a while, then I'm going to add yeast and bottle immediately and refrigerate when carbonated. Anyway, again, like the first time, the sediment is overwhelming the liquid. I ended up with about 2.5 liters of sediment and 3/4 liter of clear liquid after boiling. After two hours, there's about 1/2 inch of clear on top of the sediment. I _might_ be able to filter it post-boil like I did the first batch, but it's too much trouble. I'm just going to bottle this thick experiment, carbonate it, and see what it turns out like.

I won't be doing another all-grain until I get something figured out for the mash tun I guess since that seems to be the weak link here.

 

[pablosbrewing]

Another choice is brew in a bag (BIAB), especially for small batch. One great source of bags is WilserBrewer http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[eigua]

Another choice is brew in a bag (BIAB), especially for small batch. One great source of bags is WilserBrewer http://biabbags.webs.com/

Thanks. I've been wondering if using a grain bag would help any, but the ones I saw at my lhbs looked to porous to make any difference with this fine sediment. I can't really tell how porous the ones on that site are, but they had something similar to it at the lhbs. It's worth a try I suppose.

 

[pvpeacock]

What kind of mash tun are you using and with what type of screen (e.g. bazooka screen, false bottom)?

 

[mongoose33]

That's a remarkable amount of sediment. My first thought is it's way too fine a crush, and yet, I'd think you'd get a stuck sparge if that were the case.

Another option is that you're draining the mash too fast--the first runnings during vorlauf should come out slowly, so the grain bed has a chance to settle and act as a filter.

Still another is that when you pour the vorlauf into the grain bed, you're creating a tunnel down to the screen or false bottom that no longer filters.

Another yet is that the holes in your screen or false bottom are too large.

Finally, you don't say what your recipe is--is it all barley, or do you have other grain elements that don't have husks? If you use too much of a huskless grain--Rye or Wheat for instance--there are no husks to act as a filter. If that's the case you need to use some Rice hulls to make up for that.

 

[eigua]

What kind of mash tun are you using and with what type of screen (e.g. bazooka screen, false bottom)?

Nothing so sophisticated.

The first batch, I used a metal strainer and poured water over the mash and pressed it out as I had seen done in a YouTube video. The second time, because of the ridiculous sediment I had the first time, I used a Pur water dispenser with a spigot at the bottom in an attempt to use the grain as a filter. I didn't rig up any kind of straining mechanism in it, even though I was aware this would work a lot better. Still, without any screen or tube with holes in it, I did get a good clear filtration... for about 2-3 cups worth. It took a good 45 minutes to even get that much because it started just dripping after the first cup or so came off in a light stream.

That's a remarkable amount of sediment. My first thought is it's way too fine a crush, and yet, I'd think you'd get a stuck sparge if that were the case.

It sounds like that's pretty much I'm describing above. Both times, there was quite a bit of powder in the bottom of the bags of grain. Ultimately, I had to give up on the Pur sparge and do it by hand with a strainer as I had done before.

Another option is that you're draining the mash too fast--the first runnings during vorlauf should come out slowly, so the grain bed has a chance to settle and act as a filter.

Draining fast wasn't an option. It was slow from the start because of the amount of grain blocking the spigot and the lack of a filtration system (besides the grain itself).

Still another is that when you pour the vorlauf into the grain bed, you're creating a tunnel down to the screen or false bottom that no longer filters.

I was aware of that concern because of watching quite a lot of videos and made sure not to create any tunnels by pouring the water over a strainer.

Finally, you don't say what your recipe is--is it all barley, or do you have other grain elements that don't have husks? If you use too much of a huskless grain--Rye or Wheat for instance--there are no husks to act as a filter. If that's the case you need to use some Rice hulls to make up for that.

The first batch was a pale ale kit I bought years ago. It came with 2 lbs Row Malt and 4 oz Crystal Malt. This 2nd batch was grain I got at lhbs -- I believe it was 2 lbs IPA 2-row malt and 1 lb malted wheat. They definitely had husks.

 

[pablosbrewing]

Thanks. I've been wondering if using a grain bag would help any, but the ones I saw at my lhbs looked to porous to make any difference with this fine sediment. I can't really tell how porous the ones on that site are, but they had something similar to it at the lhbs. It's worth a try I suppose.

Sediment won't likely affect your final beer clarity. I dump pretty much ALL the crap from the kettle into the fermenter and I get clarity like this http://pablosbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/boxingdaybittertaste3.jpg


edit: Really - 3/4 of a fermenter of sediment/trub settles to an inch by the end in 5 gallons. Filtering that much is actually not good for your beer.

 

[Yooper]

I think the issue is lack of any sort of lautering system. You need a braid or a false bottom or a wilserbag, or SOME thing to keep the grain (that's grain, not break material) out of the boil/fermenter and filtering with coffee filters and paper towels isn't going to do it.

You can do a zapap system with a bucket with drilled holes in another bucket if you don't want to get a braid from the hardware store, or a finely woven bag, but you definitely need something.

 

[eigua]

Sediment won't likely affect your final beer clarity. I dump pretty much ALL the crap from the kettle into the fermenter and I get clarity like this http://pablosbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/boxingdaybittertaste3.jpg

edit: Really - 3/4 of a fermenter of sediment/trub settles to an inch by the end in 5 gallons. Filtering that much is actually not good for your beer.

Beautiful... I hope to make something that nice some day.

This is how much sediment I ended up with after bottling. The sediment is thick enough that the yeast isn't touching it as far as I can tell. The bubbles are coming from the top of the sediment and the plastic bottle is already firming up only after a few hours. (This is just a sweet malt soda experiment.)

I think the issue is lack of any sort of lautering system. You need a braid or a false bottom or a wilserbag, or SOME thing to keep the grain (that's grain, not break material) out of the boil/fermenter and filtering with coffee filters and paper towels isn't going to do it.

You can do a zapap system with a bucket with drilled holes in another bucket if you don't want to get a braid from the hardware store, or a finely woven bag, but you definitely need something.

I agree. I will definitely get something put together before I try again. Thanks for the additional ideas. Being too cheap about it cost me a lot of time and wasted grain. Other than this issue, I haven't had any other problems and find all-grain brewing to be a lot more interactive and fun than extract brewing.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to give all the great advice!

 

[eigua]

Well, just in case any newbie tries to do the same... I ended up bottling this unfermented with some yeast for carbonation. Since it was in a plastic bottle, I was able to tell when it was well carbonated and then put it in the refrigerator (which only took a few hours). Guess what happens when you open a carbonated drink with a bunch of grit and sediment filling half the bottle? It's really obvious now, but it didn't dawn on me at the time that all those millions of sediment particles would become nucleation sites.