Gnawing Questions - Continued

[BeerSlinger]

I didn’t think that I would have to ask this so soon but I didn't realize how expensive shipping was for 50 lbs on UPS. So I need to plan ahead and understand what I’m buying in bulk.

Basically all of my last stupid questions are about Specialty Grains. The first time I did a brew it was just with the LME and the hops but most of the recipes that I’m looking at now are calling for either crystal, chocolate or other fine grains. Part of the disadvantage is that I’m not going by any instructions but by a chart of the ingredients so I can answer the question of what, but I’m missing the how. So here is what I don’t know:

1. When I see malts listed, they have numbers like: Briess Crystal 10L Malt - 10 lb, and I have seen them listed as high as 120L. What does the L stand for?

2. I have noticed that grains are offered in Cracked and in whole, why would someone buy whole specialty grains? I thought before you boil, you were supposed to crack them at all times?

3. When adding grains to the boil, is there a preferred temperature like mashing?

4. Last and most important, in my last post, I discovered the fact that hops naturally deteriorates at room temperature. How about specialty grains, do they deteriorate as well?

In panic after learning this last time, I just threw them into the fridge with the hops because my auto response was to think that powders are safe at room temp but ingredients weren’t. I don’t know this for a fact so I just wanted to ask to be sure.

 

[david_42]

Lovibond scale of darkness
Whole stores longer, but still needs to be cracked before use.
Max. 170F for steeping. NEVER boil them.
Whole grains are good for 5-6 months. Cracked 30 days. Freezing is good.

 

[the_bird]

1. "L" is degrees lovibond, a measure of color. Lower numbers = lower color. Malts of different color also have different flavors, in general higher-numbered (darker) crystal malts are a little more caramely.

2. Some people (hopefully myself in the near future) have grain mills. If you can buy your grain uncracked and mill it yourself, it will last a lot longer (assuming you keep it cool and dry).

3. NEVER BOIL GRAINS (unless you are doing a decotion mash). If you are steeping, thirty minutes at 150 - 160 degrees ought to suffice.

4. Specialty grains, if cracked, will lose some freshness, but the amount of time it takes for that to occur is highly dependant on storage conditions. Fridge is probably too moist. Keep them in an airtight container somewhere cool and dry, they should last a couple months.

 

[Yooper]

Well, I'll take one question at a time:

1. The L stands for lovibond. The numbers given are to different roasts or color. The higher the number, the darker and more roasty it is. For example, Crystal 10L has a honeylike sweetness and will add some body to the beer. Crystal 120L has a toasted bittersweet caramel flavor. It will add lots of color to the beer. It almost tastes like burnt sugar. The rest all very in degrees but you get the idea.

2. You buy whole specialty grains if you are going to save them for a while and crack them yourself. I don't have a mill, so I buy them already milled.

3. You don't add specialty grains to the boil. You put them in a grain bag, bring the water up to 160 degrees or so, and steep at 155 for as long as the recipe indicates, usually 20-40 minutes. Then, you remove them and heat the water to boiling. Boiling grains will cause an unpleasant astringent tastes, from the husks giving off tanins.

4. Specialty grains, especially if cracked, will lose freshness. I don't recommend keeping them for any length of time. I don't know how long they'll stay ok- maybe someone else will know that. I freeze my hops in ziploc bags. Maybe you can do that with specialty grains, too, but I don't know.

Lorena

Wow- David and bird type way faster than me!

 

[BeerSlinger]

Well, I'll take one question at a time:

1. The L stands for lovibond. The numbers given are to different roasts or color. The higher the number, the darker and more roasty it is. For example, Crystal 10L has a honeylike sweetness and will add some body to the beer. Crystal 120L has a toasted bittersweet caramel flavor. It will add lots of color to the beer. It almost tastes like burnt sugar. The rest all very in degrees but you get the idea.

2. You buy whole specialty grains if you are going to save them for a while and crack them yourself. I don't have a mill, so I buy them already milled.

3. You don't add specialty grains to the boil. You put them in a grain bag, bring the water up to 160 degrees or so, and steep at 155 for as long as the recipe indicates, usually 20-40 minutes. Then, you remove them and heat the water to boiling. Boiling grains will cause an unpleasant astringent tastes, from the husks giving off tanins.

4. Specialty grains, especially if cracked, will lose freshness. I don't recommend keeping them for any length of time. I don't know how long they'll stay ok- maybe someone else will know that. I freeze my hops in ziploc bags. Maybe you can do that with specialty grains, too, but I don't know.

Lorena

Wow- David and bird type way faster than me!

Thanks for all of the Reponses…and it just confirms what I was suspecting and that is to “buy hops and grains as you need them.” or as close to it as possible. But please, believe me, I understand and trust what you guys are telling me but I just want to add a couple of follow up questions so that either you guys won’t think that I’m crazy or just didn’t know what I was talking about.

First a point of confusion, in this case I have no instructions for the recipe, I just have the ingredients. So, I would believe that you would boil the grain @ 160-170 degrees for 20-40 minutes but that makes me wonder, isn’t this considered mashing or partial mashing? Anyway, how would you know what Lovibond to buy if its not specified and how long would you know how to have it in the kettle?

Last, I swear to you that I’m not crazy; I got the presumption of boiling from the Papazian book, 3rd edition, page 124 where it quotes:

“Hops that are used as flavor or aromatic finishing hops should be added during in the final 1-10 minutes of the boil. Generally, flavor will be extracted and preserved for no longer then 10 minutes of boiling. The aromatics of hops will be dissipated more quickly and should be allowed to be steep for only 1-2 minutes if hop aroma is desired in the finished beer.”

Why in Gods green earth would he say such a thing?

 

[the_bird]

Don't get the boiling of grains and hops confused. First of all, if you

boil the grain @ 160-170 degrees

Well, you aren't boiling, are you?

"Steeping" the grains (what you are doing) is similar in many ways to "mashing" in process, but mashing actually involves the conversion of starches to sugars. When you steep, you are simply extracting flavors and sugars that are already there. The processes are similar, but mashing requires a tighter control of your temp, a bit longer holding period, and it requires that you "sparge" (rinse) your grains in some way. If you are only using crytsal malts and dark roasted malts, you don't need to do anything besides steep.

As to the Papazian quote, he's referring to the aromatic properties of hops additions. When you boil hops for the full sixty minutes, you extract a lot of bitterness, but all the flavor and aroma compounds (which are much more delicate) have been destroyed. When you add hops for fifteen minutes, you get less bitterness, but more of the flavor compounds remain (aroma is still shot). When you add hops at the very end of the boil, you get virtually no bitterness, some flavor, but a lot of aroma, because those compounds have not been destroyed by the boiling process.

But, all of that is distinct from the grains. By the time your wort initially boils and you make your first hops addition, your steeping grains should be long gone from the brewpot. If you leave them in there during the actual BOIL, or even once temsp get to around 170 - 180 degrees, you pull out a lot of tannins from the husks, which results in a nasty, astringent taste.

Make sense?

 

[MariaAZ]

I think part of the confusion may be using the term "boiling" for "steeping". Boiling indicates a temperature of 212 degrees. I've done two batches, both extract with steeping grains. In both cases the grains were steeped at around 165 degrees for 30 minutes, then the grains were removed (I used a grain bag) and the extract was added. THEN the wort was brought to a boil and the hops added. So the quote from Papazian's book is correct From what I'm understanding of your procedure, you may be skipping the part about removing the grain before bringing the wort to a boil.

 

[sonvolt]

and it just confirms what I was suspecting and that is to “buy hops and grains as you need them.” or as close to it as possible.

If you buy uncrushed grain, you can store the grain in a dry environment for a long time. I buy in 50 lb bags and store it for months. I also store my hops for long times in the freezer.

First a point of confusion, in this case I have no instructions for the recipe, I just have the ingredients. So, I would believe that you would boil the grain @ 160-170 degrees for 20-40 minutes but that makes me wonder, isn’t this considered mashing or partial mashing? Anyway, how would you know what Lovibond to buy if its not specified and how long would you know how to have it in the kettle?

First of all, you can't boil water at 160-170 degrees. You will not see boil until you are over 200 degrees. Secondly, I assume that you are doing an extract with specialty grains recipe. You will want to steep those grains in a grain bag. Most people put the grains in cold water and steep until the water gets to 165-170 and then take it out. I have heard others maintain temps for a certain amount of time. Remeber, that you are only getting color and a bit of flavor from the grains. This is why you are not mashing. In order to mash, you would need to add some 2-row in order to get enzymatic activity, etc. As for Lovibond, it depends on how dark you want your beerr you want your beer; higher lovibond grains will make a darker beer. Let us know the ingredients/style of what you are brewing and we can help you with a grain bill. Once you decide, put your crushed grain into your grain bag, add it to cold water, turn on the heat, and pull the bag out of the water when your temps hit 160-165 degrees.

Last, I swear to you that I’m not crazy; I got the presumption of boiling from the Papazian book, 3rd edition, page 124 where it quotes:

“Hops that are used as flavor or aromatic finishing hops should be added during in the final 1-10 minutes of the boil. Generally, flavor will be extracted and preserved for no longer then 10 minutes of boiling. The aromatics of hops will be dissipated more quickly and should be allowed to be steep for only 1-2 minutes if hop aroma is desired in the finished beer.”

Why in Gods green earth would he say such a thing?

You can get three things from hops - bitterness, flavor, and aroma. This is why most of us do three hop additions during the boil. The hops that are boiled for 60 minutes will contribute bitterness. This addition is perhaps the most fundamentally important addition for creating a good, balanced beer. Next, we will add flavor hops at about 15 minutes or so. This addition contributes some bitterness, but it is responsible for the great flavor of hops in the final brew. Finally, in order to get the wonderful hop aroma that characterizes many styles, you can't let the hops boil b/c the aroma is driven off in the boil itself. These are added at the end.

Make sense?

 

[Cheesefood]

Part of the disadvantage is that I’m not going by any instructions but by a chart of the ingredients so I can answer the question of what, but I’m missing the how.

Until you're more comfortable with your grains and hops, you shouldn't try to improvise your recipes. You'll end up making beers with too strong or weak of flavors and you'll get turned off of brewing.

A lot of us do clones from time to time. Making a clone (from a valid recipe) is a way to prove to yourself that you know your craft well enough to make something that's commercially successful. It also teaches us how to balance the number of ingredients with the style and the flavors we want to achieve.

 

[the_bird]

I'd buy one of the kits from the reputable online supplies - Northern Brewer, Austin Homebrew, Morebeer - so that you don't have to worry about the recipe, just worry about getting the process down first.

 

[BeerSlinger]

Don't get the boiling of grains and hops confused. First of all, if you



Well, you aren't boiling, are you?

"Steeping" the grains (what you are doing) is similar in many ways to "mashing" in process, but mashing actually involves the conversion of starches to sugars. When you steep, you are simply extracting flavors and sugars that are already there. The processes are similar, but mashing requires a tighter control of your temp, a bit longer holding period, and it requires that you "sparge" (rinse) your grains in some way. If you are only using crytsal malts and dark roasted malts, you don't need to do anything besides steep.

As to the Papazian quote, he's referring to the aromatic properties of hops additions. When you boil hops for the full sixty minutes, you extract a lot of bitterness, but all the flavor and aroma compounds (which are much more delicate) have been destroyed. When you add hops for fifteen minutes, you get less bitterness, but more of the flavor compounds remain (aroma is still shot). When you add hops at the very end of the boil, you get virtually no bitterness, some flavor, but a lot of aroma, because those compounds have not been destroyed by the boiling process.

But, all of that is distinct from the grains. By the time your wort initially boils and you make your first hops addition, your steeping grains should be long gone from the brewpot. If you leave them in there during the actual BOIL, or even once temsp get to around 170 - 180 degrees, you pull out a lot of tannins from the husks, which results in a nasty, astringent taste.

Make sense?

Mashing = transfur Starches to sugars (for an hour @ a tight temp range)
Seeping = transfur Flavor and sugars (for less then an hour @ a temp range)

Yeah.....seems pretty straight forward to me.......That's the only thing I hate about that "Complete Joy of Homebrewing" is the fact that there is no orgainzed mannor to the book...If someone had told me that straight away, I would have gotten it. But the whole stupid book is orgainized like he was drunk when he wrote it.....

That was what put me off all those years ago and why i'm just now starting to brew almost half a dozen years after the fact..

But that also explains something else, I didn't realize the longer you have hops in, the more bitterness comes out.....that could explain why my first beer had a bitterness to it because the hops were added not long after the boil was started.....

That’s quite epiphanious.....

 

[the_bird]

I love Papazian's book, don't get me wrong.

But.......







Complete Joy, it's kind of the philisophical treatise of this hobby. Some of the info is a little dated, and it isn't the best at explaining the process. It's great at communicating the enjoyment and the relaxed attitude of homebrewing, but...

Get yourself a copy of John Palmer's How To Brew. He has put the first edition of the book up - the whole thing - free of charge at www.howtobrew.com, or I'd recommend picking up a hardcopy. Someone else said it best, Papazian's book is the Bible, but Palmer wrote the technical manual. It's a great, great resource for all of these kinds of questions.

 

[BeerSlinger]

Until you're more comfortable with your grains and hops, you shouldn't try to improvise your recipes. You'll end up making beers with too strong or weak of flavors and you'll get turned off of brewing.

A lot of us do clones from time to time. Making a clone (from a valid recipe) is a way to prove to yourself that you know your craft well enough to make something that's commercially successful. It also teaches us how to balance the number of ingredients with the style and the flavors we want to achieve.

Ok, Its not that I'm just going by the seat of my pants its that i'm going on as much information as I have.......I'll tell you what, here are the recipes that I want to do:

Papazian's 3rd Edition:
PG 154 Scotch Ale
PG 156 Irish Red Ale
PG 158 Imperial Stout

I don't want to do anything fancy, I just want a beer that tastes decent and that last one that I made got a little rough about half way through......I haven't decided on anything for ingredients except for the DME and I planed to go with Light and Amber Muntons and I plan to buy corn sugar in bulk....

Otherwise i'm game......

If someone doesn't have this book I can put more up about these beers later on if someone requests it.......

 

[MariaAZ]

I'm one of those newbies who is pushing probably a bit faster than I should. I started with an extract/steeping grains kit. My second batch is a recipe from Papazian's book (Goat Scrotum Ale... I didn't name it, honest!) Because the recipe didn't specify the hops, I asked the guy at the LHBS what he would recommend and then took his advice. I followed Papazian's directions from there and even though it's too early to judge (I just bottled it a few days ago) I'm quite happy with the sample I took while bottling.

 

[BeerSlinger]

I'm one of those newbies who is pushing probably a bit faster than I should. I started with an extract/steeping grains kit. My second batch is a recipe from Papazian's book (Goat Scrotum Ale... I didn't name it, honest!) Because the recipe didn't specify the hops, I asked the guy at the LHBS what he would recommend and then took his advice. I followed Papazian's directions from there and even though it's too early to judge (I just bottled it a few days ago) I'm quite happy with the sample I took while bottling.

Let me know how it turnes out.......I talked to everyone on here and I started talking about gravity and taste with a few examples of my favorite beers and I was told that most of them require seeping/mashing so it is a bullet that I want to bite because the last crap that I had, there was nothing wrong with it if your into Boston Ales but i'm not. Personally I like some of these:

Cherry Wheat
German Pillsner
Choco-Roasted
English Brown
Gunniess
Scottish Porter

Those are the ones off the top of my head.....See why I feel like I need to ask about seeping?