GFCI breaker in panel vs spa panel

[Homer]

I plan on running a 100 Amp sub panel approximately 100 feet from the main panel. Would I be better off using a 100A GFCI breaker in the main panel feeding the sub panel or use a normal breaker and set up 2 50A spa panels to feed my control boxes after the sub panel? Does the long distance affect how well the GFCI breaker will work?

Thanks

 

[brewster2012]

That is a great question. Inquiring minds want to know!

I have a 70amp breaker feeding a sub-panel to the garage (60-70ft away) and have a similar decision to make...replace the 70amp breaker in the main panel with GFCI, replace the 50amp breaker in the sub-panel with GFCI, or use a stand alone spa-panel with GFCI breakers. FYI - electric brewing will be in the garage approximately 15ft from the sub-panel.

 

[laredo7mm]

Without looking up prices, I would think that 2 50A spa panels would be a lot cheaper than a 100A GFCI breaker. I bought a 50A spa panel at a big box store and it was $60.

I seem to remember that GFCI breakers were awfully expensive.

 

[Bobby_M]

Brand new the 100 gfci would be 4x the price of one spa panel. Look for a used one. Keep in mind that the Midwest brand spa panel can take 2 breakers so you can steal one breaker out of the second panel.

 

[augiedoggy]

I also found the 100amp breakers to be overpriced. Since I only needed to one spa panel I found it very useful as a main power switch I kill whenever im done brewing for piece of mind.

 

[Homer]

Well, I'm actually having a hard time even finding a 100A GFCI online. I always knew that the spa panel was the cheaper way to go, but I thought since I would need 2 spa panels that maybe the single 100A gfci might be not that much more than buying the 2 spa panels. Wonder if it is even worth it to find a used one?

 

[Homer]

Brand new the 100 gfci would be 4x the price of one spa panel. Look for a used one. Keep in mind that the Midwest brand spa panel can take 2 breakers so you can steal one breaker out of the second panel.

Hi Bobby, are you saying that I can buy 2 50 spa panels and pull out the gfci breaker from one and install both 50 GFCI breakers in a single spa panel? If so, that would be awesome, then I don't have to hang 2 boxes. Or can I just remove both 50 amp GFCI breakers from the spa panels and put them directly into the 100A sub panel that I am installing in the area?

 

[stlbeer]

Correct, Homer, there is room in the 50A spa panel for 2 50A 240v GFCI breakers.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hi Bobby, are you saying that I can buy 2 50 spa panels and pull out the gfci breaker from one and install both 50 GFCI breakers in a single spa panel? If so, that would be awesome, then I don't have to hang 2 boxes. Or can I just remove both 50 amp GFCI breakers from the spa panels and put them directly into the 100A sub panel that I am installing in the area?

Affirmative. The Midwest brand spa panel has one 50a GFCI breaker installed but it has another spot for another 50a breaker. Just break the two tabs off the cover, steal a breaker from the second spa panel and mount it in the other. The terminals on the buss are plenty large for some 2 or 3 gauge wire. I have even speculated that if you are building a large enough control panel that you may even consider pulling the guts out of the spa panel and hiding both breakers inside, but then you won't have easy reset access that way.

There is no way you'll find a 100 amp GFCI breaker for less than $150, more likely $200 depending on the brand. Not only that but splitting 100 amps down to a pair of 50 amp breakers is a good thing. Whether you feel compelled to break it down further to 25 or 30 amp breakers per element is up to you (I personally don't).

 

[augiedoggy]

60amp spa panels arent that uncommon or expensive though I dont think they even sell the single breaker any bigger installed in one. I intend on using 2 60a spa panels to power 6 4500w elements when I build my 5bbl system.

 

[itsnotrequired]

and those widwest spa panels are rated for 125 amps so no worries running 100 amps through the thing (with all breakers/conductors sized appropriately).

 

[jeremy2027]

Electrically speaking do you benefit having the GFCI breaker closer to the load source vs at the main panel?
I'm looking to get a 50amp setup and found the cost of a 50amp GFCI breaker to be 90 dollars where the spa panel is 65 dollars. So after doing the math they are not that far off in price considering with the spa panel you will need a 50amp breaker in the panel around 10 dollars hardware to connect a 30amp plug to the spa panel you are looking around maybe 5 to 10 dollars in price difference.
So lets say with all things equal cost wise which is better a GFCI in the main panel or a spa panel. My main is around 50 ft from my brewery.

 

[Bobby_M]

Electrically probably not. Practically yes. You have an intermediate shutoff location closer to the brew station.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Electrically speaking do you benefit having the GFCI breaker closer to the load source vs at the main panel?
I'm looking to get a 50amp setup and found the cost of a 50amp GFCI breaker to be 90 dollars where the spa panel is 65 dollars. So after doing the math they are not that far off in price considering with the spa panel you will need a 50amp breaker in the panel around 10 dollars hardware to connect a 30amp plug to the spa panel you are looking around maybe 5 to 10 dollars in price difference.
So lets say with all things equal cost wise which is better a GFCI in the main panel or a spa panel. My main is around 50 ft from my brewery.

i have a 30 amp setup but my situation was similar to yours, buy a gfci breaker or go with the cheaper spa panel. at the end of the day, i went with the gfci breaker. the spa panel was cheaper than the breaker but it is one more piece of equipment to find space for, twice as many terminations, one more thing to go wrong, etc.

electrically, it makes no difference. i have a main power contactor on my brew panel and i just use that to turn it off. it is cord connected so i can isolate power that way as well. i have yet to turn off the gfci breaker in the panel.

 

[jeremy2027]

Good info

 

[Homer]

Awesome, thanks for all the replies! Once I learned that I can fit two 50A GFCI's in 1 spa panel, it made my decision easy. For the last few years, my buddy let me use half of his garage for my brewery, so I have a spa panel already installed in there, but we filed the other open slots with 2 breakers for the lights and outlets in the garage when we wired the place up. I was thinking I was just going to have to abandon that whole spa panel in there when I moved my brewery and get 2 new ones, but now, I can just pull that breaker out and only buy 1 more spa panel and install my old 50 amp breaker in that.

 

[calebstringer]

Frankly, there isn't a need for two 50 amp gfi's.... think about it. Your heating elements don't use a neutral. Two hots and a ground (which they don't use either, but is grounded in the housing). I did the same thing and ran two 60 amp gfi's. Then it dawned on my I could've saved a lot of money and just ran three circuits...two 50's for the elements, and then a gfi single pole 20 for everything else in my panel

 

[doug293cz]

Frankly, there isn't a need for two 50 amp gfi's.... think about it. Your heating elements don't use a neutral. Two hots and a ground (which they don't use either, but is grounded in the housing). I did the same thing and ran two 60 amp gfi's. Then it dawned on my I could've saved a lot of money and just ran three circuits...two 50's for the elements, and then a gfi single pole 20 for everything else in my panel

Are you suggesting that the 240V heating elements don't require GFCI protection (your post is kind of unclear)? If so, this is very dangerous advice. You absolutely do need to have your elements protected by GFCI. Whether or not the elements use a neutral has nothing to do with the necessity for GFCI.

Brew on

 

[calebstringer]

Are you suggesting that the 240V heating elements don't require GFCI protection (your post is kind of unclear)? If so, this is very dangerous advice. You absolutely do need to have your elements protected by GFCI. Whether or not the elements use a neutral has nothing to do with the necessity for GFCI.

Brew on

Actually, that is what I'm saying, and with this reasoning:

1. Unlike a spa/hot tub, you are not submerged in the liquid that the element is in direct contact with.

2. We as brewers are using these element in the same manner as an electric water heater. Elements submerged in liquid, in a grounded vessel.

3. NEC does not require GFCI's with water heaters.

4. Yes, a GFCI will operate without a neutral, but as I understand it (and can be wrong) GFCI's primary function are to sense an imbalance between hot and neutral, as low at 5 milliamp, and will trip. Short any load to ground and it will trip a regular breaker.

I didn't mean to come across as advocating everyone to do this. I found this line on logic very interesting and was putting it out for discussion.

 

[doug293cz]

Actually, that is what I'm saying, and with this reasoning:

1. Unlike a spa/hot tub, you are not submerged in the liquid that the element is in direct contact with.

2. We as brewers are using these element in the same manner as an electric water heater. Elements submerged in liquid, in a grounded vessel.

3. NEC does not require GFCI's with water heaters.

4. Yes, a GFCI will operate without a neutral, but as I understand it (and can be wrong) GFCI's primary function are to sense an imbalance between hot and neutral, as low at 5 milliamp, and will trip. Short any load to ground and it will trip a regular breaker.

I didn't mean to come across as advocating everyone to do this. I found this line on logic very interesting and was putting it out for discussion.

Your line of reasoning is faulty. Water heaters are built by certified manufacturers, but electric brewing systems are not. Water heaters are usually installed by licensed contractors, but electric brewing systems are not. Water heaters are not touched anywhere near as often as the heated vessels in an electric brewing system. All of these combine to make the probability of a fault much higher in an electric brewing system than for a water heater. Faults can include failed ground connections and shorts between hot lines and other system components. It's usually a combination of both of these (failed or missing ground, and a short) that creates a risk of electrocution. The GFCI is what protects you from this risk situation.

You have some misunderstanding of how a GFCI works. The GFCI has no concept of ground and neutral. It senses an imbalance of current among two or more current carrying conductors (neutral IS a current carrying conductor). If there is an imbalance of ~5 mA, then the GFCI trips its associated breaker. The reason they work this way is that if there is a current imbalance, that means that some current is flowing thru an unintended path (potentially you!). The imbalance is something that is never supposed to occur, so if it does, something is wrong. In a 240V only system, the GFCI is really looking only at the balance between Line 1 and Line 2. If they don't balance, then there is current leakage somewhere.

Do not continue advocating for not using GFCI on any portion of an electric brewing system. If you do, I'm pretty sure you will be shut down by a moderator (you will be admonished and your posts deleted.)

Brew on

 

[Owly055]

GFCITIS is probably a good affliction. The point about not being submerged in wort is an excellent one... One I am in 100% agreement with. Like you, I would not want to discourage anybody from using GFCI, however it is worth looking at the situation rationally. Before GFCI we relied on proper wiring with good grounding, and it worked. It still works. GFCI is "technology" that requires sensing, as well as response like Tesla's "autopilot".
Design as if GFCI didn't exist, and behave as if it didn't exist..... It MAY NOT EXIST when you need it. Some people may trust their lives to "technology"..... I avoid that situation like the plague!!

All that said, I do not own a single GFCI device....... NOT ONE. Not because I object to it, but because I have no need of it. My 2500 watt floating heater runs on 240VAC, and is well grounded, and that applies to many appliances I have in my home and shop. I work on center pivot sprinkers all summer long. They run on 480 volt 3 phase........... electricity and water......... do you think any of them have GFCI??? If you do "guess again". At 61, I've dealt with high voltage electricity since I was a child, dismantling TVs and other things for electrical components including capacitors with the capacity to kill a man. A little knowledge and common sense goes a long way.

I have a hard time imagining why one would need 100 amps for brewing? Many home services are only 200 amps, and the largest welder I own draws 125 Amps, while maxed out........ which it never is even running arcair. It'll burn 1/4" rod like melting butter without even approaching max. (1/4" metal, close to 1/2" total diameter including flux). Perhaps if 100 amps is needed, one might look at gas??? But that can kill you too if you are stupid.

H.W.

Actually, that is what I'm saying, and with this reasoning:

1. Unlike a spa/hot tub, you are not submerged in the liquid that the element is in direct contact with.

2. We as brewers are using these element in the same manner as an electric water heater. Elements submerged in liquid, in a grounded vessel.

3. NEC does not require GFCI's with water heaters.

4. Yes, a GFCI will operate without a neutral, but as I understand it (and can be wrong) GFCI's primary function are to sense an imbalance between hot and neutral, as low at 5 milliamp, and will trip. Short any load to ground and it will trip a regular breaker.

I didn't mean to come across as advocating everyone to do this. I found this line on logic very interesting and was putting it out for discussion.

 

[calebstringer]

GFCITIS is probably a good affliction. The point about not being submerged in wort is an excellent one... One I am in 100% agreement with. Like you, I would not want to discourage anybody from using GFCI, however it is worth looking at the situation rationally. Before GFCI we relied on proper wiring with good grounding, and it worked. It still works. GFCI is "technology" that requires sensing, as well as response like Tesla's "autopilot".
Design as if GFCI didn't exist, and behave as if it didn't exist..... It MAY NOT EXIST when you need it. Some people may trust their lives to "technology"..... I avoid that situation like the plague!!

All that said, I do not own a single GFCI device....... NOT ONE. Not because I object to it, but because I have no need of it. My 2500 watt floating heater runs on 240VAC, and is well grounded, and that applies to many appliances I have in my home and shop. I work on center pivot sprinkers all summer long. They run on 480 volt 3 phase........... electricity and water......... do you think any of them have GFCI??? If you do "guess again". At 61, I've dealt with high voltage electricity since I was a child, dismantling TVs and other things for electrical components including capacitors with the capacity to kill a man. A little knowledge and common sense goes a long way.

I have a hard time imagining why one would need 100 amps for brewing? Many home services are only 200 amps, and the largest welder I own draws 125 Amps, while maxed out........ which it never is even running arcair. It'll burn 1/4" rod like melting butter without even approaching max. (1/4" metal, close to 1/2" total diameter including flux). Perhaps if 100 amps is needed, one might look at gas??? But that can kill you too if you are stupid.

H.W.

Thanks for your input. That's exactly my train of thought, based upon all the research I have done.

As far as 100 amps, I built to future proof. At most, I'll probably only use 3 elements at one time, briefly. Normal operation will be just two. But I am running a 1 BBL system, and I'm not ruling scaling up in the future (either as pilot system for a local brewery or for a 3 BBL nano )

 

[gl_az]

Here's a case where GFCI saved my a$$. I had a commercial, 120V, off the shelf, UL listed hotplate that I used under my mash tun to help maintain heat. One day, after about 10 uses, it developed some internal open and placed 120V main directly on my SS mash tun. The tun was isolated from ground and had no leakage that the GFCI could immediately pick up on. I did not realize this until I made full contact on this tun and the GFCI popped as designed, only after a very brief holy s*** moment as full 120V ran from one hand, through my body, and heart, to the other hand resting on another pot that was thoroughly grounded.

I am not a commercial electrician but do have background and schooling in both AC and DC electronics and understand the concepts fairly well (in my youth I fixed common household electronics including televisions with 15kv+ 'flybacks').

Going without GFCI and any other safety technology on any such brewing equipment is simply asking for disaster only to save a few bucks. Just don't do it. 120V AC will kill you in an instant. It is irresponsible to suggest that anyone reduce the presence of safety devices to save a few bucks because some unrelated and carefully tested commercial devices may not have those same devices (and yeah, BTW, the electric water heater I just installed 3 months ago had a GFCI built in).

Brew on, safely

 

[calebstringer]

Actually I just converted from gas to electric when I went from 1/2 BBL to 1 BBL for consistency

 

[passedpawn]

GFCITIS is probably a good affliction. The point about not being submerged in wort is an excellent one... One I am in 100% agreement with. Like you, I would not want to discourage anybody from using GFCI, however it is worth looking at the situation rationally.

It's my opinion that you have not looked at the situation rationally. I'm pretty sure by your post that 1) you don't fully understand the difference between a circuit breaker and a GFCI, and/or 2) you don't appreciate the risks involved in the presence of electricity and water.

 

[KartRacer54]

My entire electric brew panel is on one 50 amp GFCI out of a spa panel. I run 5500w HLT, 5500w Boil and 4500 RIMS running at 120v. Have zero issues with system, using PJ,s wiring diagram.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is an apples to oranges comparison and people here making it know it (or are not very educated in this matter) ... You do not work over an electric hot water heater with damp or wet hands nor do you handle it and directly stir the water with metal spoons or otherwise...a hot water tank does not billow steam which has the potential to make things around it damp or wet. You do not generally stand over it with the potential of standing in a wet floor or some other circumstance which makes brewing with a non gfci protected electric setup 10 times more dangerous than having a non gfci protected hot water heater tucked away in your basement... The brewing rig should be addressed like any other kitchen or bathroom appliance which does require a gfci outlet now for these same reasons.(because enough people have already died accidently OR stupidly and necessarily from not having them that they changed the law). If accidents were 100% preventable in the real practical world your point might have some merit but thats not the reality here. and many of the average people using this stuff are clueless about electricity, they need all the protection they can get and for $50-60 for a gfci spa panel its well worth it. Its a hell of a lot more practical and bang for your money than insurance and most of us have plenty of that too..
If you want to be foolish about it thats your own prerogative but dont expect to justify and convince other here to do the same without some resistance form others here.

 

[augiedoggy]

My entire electric brew panel is on one 50 amp GFCI out of a spa panel. I run 5500w HLT, 5500w Boil and 4500 RIMS running at 120v. Have zero issues with system, using PJ,s wiring diagram.

I have similar results running AC and dc power brewing equipment off my 50a spa panel..

 

[Owly055]

It's my opinion that you have not looked at the situation rationally. I'm pretty sure by your post that 1) you don't fully understand the difference between a circuit breaker and a GFCI, and/or 2) you don't appreciate the risks involved in the presence of electricity and water.

I'm completely rational, have been working with high voltage electricity for over 50 years including working in the field with centerpivot irrigation systems that run on 480 3 phase which have no such protection. I'm very well aware of the risks of electricity and water. As the previous poster said, you are NOT submerged in wort. I submit that it is you, not I who fail to understand electricity. People do not get electrocuted dealing with properly grounded electrical devices. There is one simple rule with electricity.... It takes THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE to ground. If an element shorts out for example inside a boil vessel and the system is properly grounded you can handle the vessel and never even get a tingle. Heating elements are in metal tubes, and even if one did short out somehow, the path of least resistance is through the metal not you.

Let me give you a real world example of extremely high voltage and grounding. Nearly everybody has pulled a spark plug wire off and gotten nailed with very high voltage.. I made a pair of grounded pliers years ago and still use them. Put the ground clamp on the engine or body of the vehicle, and you can grab plug wires with the pliers bare handed all day long and never get even a tickle. You can watch the spark jump to the pliers you are holding, and never feel anything.

Please explain to me where these huge risks are?? I personally would never even consider GFCI for a boil kettle...... I'm not bathing in it. I would however have a good ground and verify that my ground worked, a simple matter of touching your VOM to each hot lead and to the kettle. Each should read 120 volts. If your kettle is grounded, you could plunge the bare ends of a live 240 volt cord into it, while having your tongue on the side of the kettle and standing in a pool of wort barefoot that was draining down your floor drain and never get a shock.

The problem here is ignorance of electricity, which breeds fear of electricity. Electricity can be dangerous, but we survived many years without GFCI, and electrocution was rare. People worked in restaurants and factories with high voltage and accidents were extremely rare.

Electricity can be dangerous, but ignorance is ALWAYS dangerous.

Your assumptions and conclusions are beyond insulting......... I work with electricity and water all the time, and know how to protect myself......... You obviously have little or no real world experience or knowledge. Spreading fear and ignorance serves nobody.

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

You dont need to be submerged in water to be electrocuted I dont why you keep saying that. I actually had a 120v wavemaker pump in my reef tank develop a leak and start leaking current into the water in my tank... as soon as I touched anything even remotely damp in contact with the water such as another power cord for my heater which had salt creep on the cord I got a nice tingle. If it had been on a gfci It wouldnt have gotten that far. Its not that unlikely that the ground connection could become bad or not be right in the first place for some people and suggesting they dont bother with gfci protection is just downright irresponsible.