Getting that Belgian Character

[SirSpectre]

Hello everyone!

I've been brewing belgians my entire time brewing (going on 3 years now). I can't ever seem to get that Belgian character that I'm looking for. Ive done about 30 batches and It seems I can get all the spicy clove out of every yeast strain out there, but I want those fruity esters. Or I've been getting more malt character out of it and the yeast is kind of in the background. My recent batches are, a dubbel, tripel, and a quad. They all seem to be really clean tasting with more of the malt character rather than yeast.

Quad I know I used way to much special B (only about 8oz) but its really over powering from the pils pale and 2.5lbs of dark candy sugar. Not much esters or spicy notes to it. Ambient temp is 62, pitched at 64, let rise to 70 in 2 days, then 2 degrees a day for 7 days to 82 degrees, then back down to 64 over 2 weeks. Westmalle strain of yeast.

Tripel used Ardennes yeast. Pils, pale, caravienne, aromatic malt, torrified wheat, clear sugar. Best success yet I suppose. I can definitely taste the spicy phenols in it and just a slight ester profile. I was expecting much more. Pitched at 64, rise to 70 in 2 days, held at 75 for 2 weeks. Been in bottle for 5 weeks, a little warming, but not hot. Tried it after a week and it was a little grainy. 5 weeks its better, but still not a rockstar tripel.

The dubbel was also ardennes yeast. Pils, munich, c40, caramunich, special b, D90. Really strong malt character, ( i didn't use that much munich 2 lbs) Same fermentation schedule as the tripel. The specialty malts are showing a decent amount here. I was expecting a drier finish and much more caramel, dark fruits. This one tastes super clean and its driving me nuts.

All beers oxygenated with pure O2. Time based on OG. Servomycese nutrient used in all beers.

Pitch rate is .6m cells per mL per degree Plato.
I know a lot of Belgian breweries go more or less than this.

I am brewing a Belgian blond this weekend with W1388 and going hot. Pitch at 66, rise to 74 within 36 hours, and rising to 80 and holding for a few weeks.

I guess over all, my Belgians are turning out too clean with some very few exceptions. It seems terminal gravity is achieved in 3-4 days. Should I go hotter? raise temp faster? Less yeast? More yeast?

 

[dpeters]

I recently made a Belgian Golden Strong Ale (1.080) that I am very pleased with. I Pitched only 1 packed of Mangrove Jack's M41 yeast, did not oxygenate, and started at 68 degrees and let it free rise to 80. I also used 2.5# of straight cane sugar instead. I too really enjoy the character of the Belgian beers! Let us know how the blond turns out.

 

[govner1]

I generally pitch @ 64°-68°F and let it free rise as high as the upper 70's to as high as 80°+.
I've used Wyeast for almost all but Lallemand/Danstar Belle Saison works well, too.

 

[Big Monk]

Hello everyone!



I've been brewing belgians my entire time brewing (going on 3 years now). I can't ever seem to get that Belgian character that I'm looking for. Ive done about 30 batches and It seems I can get all the spicy clove out of every yeast strain out there, but I want those fruity esters. Or I've been getting more malt character out of it and the yeast is kind of in the background. My recent batches are, a dubbel, tripel, and a quad. They all seem to be really clean tasting with more of the malt character rather than yeast.



Quad I know I used way to much special B (only about 8oz) but its really over powering from the pils pale and 2.5lbs of dark candy sugar. Not much esters or spicy notes to it. Ambient temp is 62, pitched at 64, let rise to 70 in 2 days, then 2 degrees a day for 7 days to 82 degrees, then back down to 64 over 2 weeks. Westmalle strain of yeast.



Tripel used Ardennes yeast. Pils, pale, caravienne, aromatic malt, torrified wheat, clear sugar. Best success yet I suppose. I can definitely taste the spicy phenols in it and just a slight ester profile. I was expecting much more. Pitched at 64, rise to 70 in 2 days, held at 75 for 2 weeks. Been in bottle for 5 weeks, a little warming, but not hot. Tried it after a week and it was a little grainy. 5 weeks its better, but still not a rockstar tripel.



The dubbel was also ardennes yeast. Pils, munich, c40, caramunich, special b, D90. Really strong malt character, ( i didn't use that much munich 2 lbs) Same fermentation schedule as the tripel. The specialty malts are showing a decent amount here. I was expecting a drier finish and much more caramel, dark fruits. This one tastes super clean and its driving me nuts.



All beers oxygenated with pure O2. Time based on OG. Servomycese nutrient used in all beers.



Pitch rate is .6m cells per mL per degree Plato.

I know a lot of Belgian breweries go more or less than this.



I am brewing a Belgian blond this weekend with W1388 and going hot. Pitch at 66, rise to 74 within 36 hours, and rising to 80 and holding for a few weeks.



I guess over all, my Belgians are turning out too clean with some very few exceptions. It seems terminal gravity is achieved in 3-4 days. Should I go hotter? raise temp faster? Less yeast? More yeast?

Do you own "BLAM"? The fermentation chapter has a ton of insights.

How long do you oxygenate? What are your OGs like?

 

[Vandulus]

Do you own "BLAM"? The fermentation chapter has a ton of insights.

How long do you oxygenate? What are your OGs like?

BLAM = Brew Like a Monk, a great book on Belgians in case you were wondering.

 

[SirSpectre]

Do you own "BLAM"? The fermentation chapter has a ton of insights.

How long do you oxygenate? What are your OGs like?

I do indeed own BLAM. Read it many times. Thats where I got a lot of my information from.

Quad: 1.087 OG Oxygenated for 60 seconds
Tripel: 1.076 OG Oxygenated for 45 seconds
Dubbel: 1.065 OG Oxygenated for 30 seconds

BLAM = Brew Like a Monk, a great book on Belgians in case you were wondering.

The BEST book!

 

[Dcpcooks]

I routinely pitch at 74 and ramp to 80 in the first two days with saison II from white labs. That gives me some Juicy bubblegum flavors. Apex predator is a good comparison if you've had it. I oxygenate for a min or so with pure o2 with a stone. I usually pitch 1 pack for each five gallons of wort up to 1.060. If it's a higher gravity than that I spin up starters. In my experience larger pitch rates produce slightly cleaner beers. Regardless of pitch rate fermentation is very fast at elevated temps. I can turn the farmhouse mentioned above in 10-14 days from grain to glass but I like to give it a few more days to clean up.

Remember the hotter you can get in the first three days will help drive fruity esters and keep the clove in check. The yeast book by white has several suggestions on flavor development, timelines on ester production and some stuff on strain characteristics. Blam is a great book as well.

 

[IslandLizard]

You may want to start fermenting at slightly higher temps, but restrain it somewhat until 20-30% done, then let her run, or assist at higher temps. To prevent the yeast from early binging, I add the sugars (plain cane sucrose or homemade candi syrups) when fermentation slows down, say when around 70-80% done.

Most Belgians are aged for quite a while, which seems to blend the flavors. My latest Belgian IPA came into itself after about a month in the keg, even better at 6 weeks, right before it kicked. By that time most hops has started to fade into the background.

Now to make it a "real" Belgian IPA I would let it age out a bit, then dry hop in the keg a week before serving. Transferring to a serving keg is probably best before dry hopping at that point, as a lot of sludge settles out over those 4-6 weeks. Using Ardennes, WY3522.

 

[Dcpcooks]

I just made a half bbl of Belgian white for my God Daughters wedding.

With that batch I made a test batch 57% pale malt and 40% unmalted wheat 3% acid malt(for ph) the first batch I pitched three packs of forbidden fruit and fermented it at 64 then ramped it to 72 to finish. I got a lot of clove in the first batch. I did add some bitter orange and coriander.

I took the entire yeast cake and used it for the final beer with a bit of a tweek to the orange and coriander. I fermented that batch at 72 for the first few days then up to 76 to finish. The warmer temp and large pitch reduced the clove and accented the fruit.

 

[SirSpectre]

I've read the sugar addition during fermentation thing recently. I am going to try that with this blond I think.

Here is what I am thinking right now:

Target OG is 1.050 without sugar. I'll add it in 4 days after pitching yeast.
Pitch rate will be 180b cells for 5.5 gallon batch (0.59M cells / mL / °P)
Pitch at 66. Put in ferm chamber that is already heated to 75 and let it rise to what ever it wants. Hold it at 75 for 2 weeks. Profit.

Change is, instead of letting it sit in the chamber at 66 and rising slowly, Let it rise fast and stress those suckers a little.

Thoughts?

 

[thehaze]

I agree on the temps: you should ferment warmer. I do not have temp. control so I rely on the temps. from my house. I always brew depending on temps. and this is why I always choose yeasts which can ferment between 70 and 80 F.

All the belgians I brewed and fermented at around 74-78 turn out good.

The only I fermented at around 64-65 in a colder garage, the beer turned out less good, with very weird phenols and esters. Did not care for it.

 

[Dcpcooks]

In my experience adding sugar will just dry the beer out, only add a bit of flavor and boost the alcohol levels. . I've played with different sugars and different timing of additions. Everything from beginning to the end of the boil and post fermentation. I like it for tippels as I like to thin those out a bit and I like adding the sugar after primary is past it's peak as island lizard suggests. The late addition forces the yeast to work on the complex sugars and not get to lazy on simple sugars.

As to flavor development with Belgian yeast I find hot equals more fruit and cooler equals more clove as a general rule of thumb. Every yeast is a bit different however and you need to play with them a bit to find the profiles you prefer.

I started brewing mostly Belgian beers when I got into brewing. I was also playing with mash profiles a lot in the beginning. After a few years of those exbeeriments I settled on a rest at 144-148 for 40 and a rise to 158 for 20 min. That has produced a wort that ferments out nicely but still leaves a bit of body and malt presence in the final beer. I find a single infusion at 152-153 gave me a one dimensional beer that had a classic dry saison profile which was a bit thin for my liking. I'd often see very high attenuation especially with sugars added.

I'd rather use a bit of wheat 10-20% and the above mash schedule and limit the sugars to <5% of fermentables. If I'm using sugars I prefer something darker with a bit of Caramelization to it. I've gone away from dextrose and clear to light sugars entirely for Belgians except trippels. I still use dextrose to dry out DIPA's but sparingly.

I think you can and should ferment Belgian yeast at the high end of the manufacturers range if your shooting for fruit or bubblegum. The lower end will produce clove in my experience. I'm also a fan of white labs over wyeast for some unexplainable reason.

 

[Kee]

Since BLAM was mentioned, the best trick I got from that book was adding Orval dregs at bottling time for tripels. (Of course, if you don't like Brett that won't help).

Try more yeast. I think that Wyeast Forbidden Fruit should be more popular but it does stink to high heaven during fermentation.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Since BLAM was mentioned, the best trick I got from that book was adding Orval dregs at bottling time for tripels. (Of course, if you don't like Brett that won't help).

Try more yeast. I think that Wyeast Forbidden Fruit should be more popular but it does stink to high heaven during fermentation.

Brett is a whole different story! I love it but it's not for everyone. I have several barrels going at any one time. Everything from cherries to straight up funk to lacto and pedio. It requires different mash profiles and timing for different results. I suspect the original Belgian beers all had some levels of wild yeast to them back in the day. I've got a wild spontaneous inoculation that's two and a half months into fermentation and I can't wait to sample it. It's still needs another month or two before I'm willing to give it a try.

 

[brewswithshoes]

You could also try underpitch/stressing the yeast. Tends to get me more of the profile I look for in my Belgians/saison.

 

[Big Monk]

I've read the sugar addition during fermentation thing recently. I am going to try that with this blond I think.

Here is what I am thinking right now:

Target OG is 1.050 without sugar. I'll add it in 4 days after pitching yeast.
Pitch rate will be 180b cells for 5.5 gallon batch (0.59M cells / mL / °P)
Pitch at 66. Put in ferm chamber that is already heated to 75 and let it rise to what ever it wants. Hold it at 75 for 2 weeks. Profit.

Change is, instead of letting it sit in the chamber at 66 and rising slowly, Let it rise fast and stress those suckers a little.

Thoughts?

What is your attenuation like on these batches?

I've always use the following general guidelines to promote ester synthesis:

1.) Go High (but not right away) - Don't be afraid to start between 66-68 °F and let it free rise to terminal gravity.

2.) Keep Original Gravity Down - This may sound counterintuitive, as higher gravity promotes ester synthesis, but...

3.) Let Attenuation Drive ABV - Higher levels of attenuation promote ester synthesis as well as give you the right body and "digestability" (to quote "BLAM"). Use sugar.

4.) Get Creative - Try something that Tomme Arthur proposes in "BLAM":

"Currently, we are overpitching the cell count (don't ask by how much, I don't know). We are then undercutting our oxygen levels at knockout, forcing the yeast to create esters by going through a starved lag phase. We are now fermenting at 64 °F (18 °C) to start, at which point we cut the yeast loose and let the fermentation go. In other words, at this point we are not using the jackets on the fermenter to cool the beer. We typically see an increase of fermentation temperature into the high 70's when we reach terminal gravity. This ramping up process works great, as we get the yeast to finish in a higher temperature range, with much of tyhe alcohol production taking place at lower temperatures, thereby minimizing fusel alcohol production. Spicy phenols are created initially, followed by much of the ester production as the beer ferments at a warmer temperature."

I recently had some great email exchanges with both Tomme Arthur and Phil Lienhart from Ommegang. Tomme still sticks by the method above.

 

[SirSpectre]

In my experience adding sugar will just dry the beer out, only add a bit of flavor and boost the alcohol levels. . I've played with different sugars and different timing of additions. Everything from beginning to the end of the boil and post fermentation. I like it for tippels as I like to thin those out a bit and I like adding the sugar after primary is past it's peak as island lizard suggests. The late addition forces the yeast to work on the complex sugars and not get to lazy on simple sugars.

As to flavor development with Belgian yeast I find hot equals more fruit and cooler equals more clove as a general rule of thumb. Every yeast is a bit different however and you need to play with them a bit to find the profiles you prefer.

I started brewing mostly Belgian beers when I got into brewing. I was also playing with mash profiles a lot in the beginning. After a few years of those exbeeriments I settled on a rest at 144-148 for 40 and a rise to 158 for 20 min. That has produced a wort that ferments out nicely but still leaves a bit of body and malt presence in the final beer. I find a single infusion at 152-153 gave me a one dimensional beer that had a classic dry saison profile which was a bit thin for my liking. I'd often see very high attenuation especially with sugars added.

I'd rather use a bit of wheat 10-20% and the above mash schedule and limit the sugars to <5% of fermentables. If I'm using sugars I prefer something darker with a bit of Caramelization to it. I've gone away from dextrose and clear to light sugars entirely for Belgians except trippels. I still use dextrose to dry out DIPA's but sparingly.

I think you can and should ferment Belgian yeast at the high end of the manufacturers range if your shooting for fruit or bubblegum. The lower end will produce clove in my experience. I'm also a fan of white labs over wyeast for some unexplainable reason.

Thats pretty close to my mash schedule. I use a 3 step mash right now, 133, 144 and 156. I do love the mouth feel that it gives. I always try to aim high for the yeast, but issues, hence the thread here.

Since BLAM was mentioned, the best trick I got from that book was adding Orval dregs at bottling time for tripels. (Of course, if you don't like Brett that won't help).

Try more yeast. I think that Wyeast Forbidden Fruit should be more popular but it does stink to high heaven during fermentation.

That sounds awesome actually. I do like me some light brett taste.

Brett is a whole different story! I love it but it's not for everyone. I have several barrels going at any one time. Everything from cherries to straight up funk to lacto and pedio. It requires different mash profiles and timing for different results. I suspect the original Belgian beers all had some levels of wild yeast to them back in the day. I've got a wild spontaneous inoculation that's two and a half months into fermentation and I can't wait to sample it. It's still needs another month or two before I'm willing to give it a try.

I'm planning a Lambic style kriek in the very near future with sour cherries picked on my parents land I just need to get some of this fermentation things fixed first before tackling the lacto and pedio path.

You could also try underpitch/stressing the yeast. Tends to get me more of the profile I look for in my Belgians/saison.

I am thinking the same. Westmalle underpitches like crazy. Even half of what I use. I am always worried about fusels at that level. Maybe I should just charge in and try it this time.

What is your attenuation like on these batches?

I've always use the following general guidelines to promote ester synthesis:

1.) Go High (but not right away) - Don't be afraid to start between 66-68 °F and let it free rise to terminal gravity.

2.) Keep Original Gravity Down - This may sound counterintuitive, as higher gravity promotes ester synthesis, but...

3.) Let Attenuation Drive ABV - Higher levels of attenuation promote ester synthesis as well as give you the right body and "digestability" (to quote "BLAM"). Use sugar.

4.) Get Creative - Try something that Tomme Arthur proposes in "BLAM":

"Currently, we are overpitching the cell count (don't ask by how much, I don't know). We are then undercutting our oxygen levels at knockout, forcing the yeast to create esters by going through a starved lag phase. We are now fermenting at 64 °F (18 °C) to start, at which point we cut the yeast loose and let the fermentation go. In other words, at this point we are not using the jackets on the fermenter to cool the beer. We typically see an increase of fermentation temperature into the high 70's when we reach terminal gravity. This ramping up process works great, as we get the yeast to finish in a higher temperature range, with much of tyhe alcohol production taking place at lower temperatures, thereby minimizing fusel alcohol production. Spicy phenols are created initially, followed by much of the ester production as the beer ferments at a warmer temperature."

I recently had some great email exchanges with both Tomme Arthur and Phil Lienhart from Ommegang. Tomme still sticks by the method above.

My Attenuation has been excellent. Never had any issues with that. Quad over attenuated a little. Aimed for a 1.012 ended up with 1.008

1. I want to go high, and let it free rise without any support, but my ambient temp in the basement is 66 right now and I am worried if that would limit how high it'll go.

2. I follow you here! Good idea. This blond tomorrow is a little under OG for the style, but I want this well below 1.010. Nice crisp and dry.

3. Interesting. I must have missed this part in BLAM and Yeast. Works for me

4. Thats about what I was doing already in regards to ferm temp. I always oxygenated and never overpitched. Perhaps underpitching and no oxygenating this time around...

 

[Big Monk]

I am thinking the same. Westmalle underpitches like crazy. Even half of what I use. I am always worried about fusels at that level. Maybe I should just charge in and try it this time.

..........

4. Thats about what I was doing already in regards to ferm temp. I always oxygenated and never overpitched. Perhaps underpitching and no oxygenating this time around...

Always be aware that the term underpitching and overpitching can be a bit tricky. You should try a number of pitching rates from low to high with other variables fixed to determine what works for you.

Remember that the Trappists have nearly 85 years of practical experience as Belgian yeast whisperers.

4. Thats about what I was doing already in regards to ferm temp. I always oxygenated and never overpitched. Perhaps underpitching and no oxygenating this time around...

I would try slightly overpitching (0.85-1.00 M/ml/P) and undercutting the oxygen.

 

[Horseflesh]

Can anyone recommend an AG recipe for something that will taste distinctly Belgian but that may be ready to drink in the normal ale range of ~3 weeks? I love Belgians but would like to find a quick brew that I can enjoy while I tackle a long term project like a quad.

I can easily control mash and fermentation temps, have oxygen, all that jazz.

 

[govner1]

Can anyone recommend an AG recipe for something that will taste distinctly Belgian but that may be ready to drink in the normal ale range of ~3 weeks? I love Belgians but would like to find a quick brew that I can enjoy while I tackle a long term project like a quad.

I can easily control mash and fermentation temps, have oxygen, all that jazz.

BPA or Cottage House Saison

 

[govner1]

Can anyone recommend an AG recipe for something that will taste distinctly Belgian but that may be ready to drink in the normal ale range of ~3 weeks? I love Belgians but would like to find a quick brew that I can enjoy while I tackle a long term project like a quad.

I can easily control mash and fermentation temps, have oxygen, all that jazz.

BPA or Cottage House Saison although I usually take a week longer on ales.

 

[SirSpectre]

OK. Well I brewed up the Blond this weekend. Pitched at 69* and 200b cells. Little more than I was planning. It was put into the ferm chamber that was already set to 75 degrees. It rose to 78 on its own, and I am holding it there for a few more days. High krausen is already over, its super clear currently, and starting to settle while it bubbles away. It smells quite divine right now. All sorts of fermentation smells. I will be letting it cool down starting on Friday and dropping 2 degrees a day until it hits 66. Cold crash for 3 days and bottle/keg.

 

[SirSpectre]

Here she is.



Its been a week in bottle at this point. I cold crashed for 4 days before bottling. Didn't use gelatin and I regret it a little.

It smells malty, and estery with a little sweetness on the nose. Excellent head retention, spot on color.

It tastes almost TOO estery now . I think that'll age out a little though. It is 100% delicious. I think its my best beer I have ever brewed to date. I downed it while typing this and I have to crack open another.

So in all, it turned out spectacular.

 

[brewswithshoes]

Would love to hear an update when you get to taste this. I'm always looking for ways to tweak my house saison and found so many different things folks are doing in this thread. I like my saison but I can never leave it alone for some reason.