Getting Frustrated with Beersmith

[Gustatorian]

Changes to the kettle losses do effect the pre-boil gravity and mash efficiency correctly, just not intuitively.

Like you said, everything is built on the fixed brew house efficiency. That sets the percentage of the sugar from the grain that gets into the fermentor. All of the other (relavent) values are calulated backwards from there to make/force that to happen. This can end up looking suspicious.

Post-boil and fermentor gravities are equal but the volumes may not be. If there are kettle losses you need a greater quantity of the same gravity wort. This means more total points post-boil which means more total points pre-boil Intuitively, to me at least, it seems the extra volume required pre-boil would cancel out the extra points. It probably does as long as the kettle loss is small enough.

For example, say we are supposed to get 5G of 1.050 wort into the fermentor, no kettle loss and we boil off 1G an hour. That is pre-boil 6G @ 1.04166. If we have a kettle loss of .25G, now we need 5.25G @ 1.050(262.5 points) post boil and get 6.25G @ 1.04200 pre-boil. With .5G kettle loss we get 5.5G @ 1.050(275 points) 6.5G @ 1.04230 pre-boil. I added the extra digits to the gravities just to show the subtle differences with the small volume change. It is climbing slowly, but a large enough loss will have a noticable effect.

This is going to flow further upstream. The extra sugar pre-boil is going to come from the mash. If you get more sugar from the mash your mash must have been more efficient.

Post-boil and fermentor gravities can and should be equal. I feel like the software knows this. BeerSmith should also know that the volumes are not equal. It appears that the software does know this because it separates them. Under the volumes tab, we see a separation of total post-boil volume from trub loss and batch volume.

Ok, so not only is it increasing your pre-boil gravity, it IS increasing your mash efficiency. I see that now. And I understand your math below, but why would the software assume that your mash efficiency must be better if you’re simply increasing your trub loss? Changing the trub loss in an equipment profile is usually a due to variable documentation on brew day. Inputing that number into the equipment profile and then the software subsequently deciding that your mash efficiency must be better seems more than counterintuitive. It seems like a flaw in the system. Especially when I was under the impression (before all of this) that the only variable that was altering mash efficiency was brewhouse efficiency (which is a flaw in itself). Do you see any benefit for this action of changing the mash efficiency/pre-boil gravity by altering the trub loss?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

It makes sense that mash eff will be higher than brewhouse, but I don't think the way it's doing so is good practice.

 

[EarthwormJim]

...but why would the software assume that your mash efficiency must be better if you’re simply increasing your trub loss? Changing the trub loss in an equipment profile is usually a due to variable documentation on brew day. Inputing that number into the equipment profile and then the software subsequently deciding that your mash efficiency must be better seems more than counterintuitive. It seems like a flaw in the system. Especially when I was under the impression (before all of this) that the only variable that was altering mash efficiency was brewhouse efficiency (which is a flaw in itself). Do you see any benefit for this action of changing the mash efficiency/pre-boil gravity by altering the trub loss?

Because you didn't also change the brew house efficiency. The brewhouse efficiency dropping is the "correct" response when only the trub loss goes up, but BS doesn't calculate that, you enter it. There is a measured brewhouse efficiency in the session tab, though. Does that number match what is set for the equipment profile or is it different?

If the trub loss increased and the measured brewhouse efficiency didn't change, then the mash efficiency must have gone up. If you leave more sugar than you thought you would in the kettle but still get as much sugar as you thought you would in the the fermenter, than the mash must have been more efficient than you thought it would be.

 

[Gustatorian]

What's the best way to get an exact measurement of the water you're adding to the system? Scored buckets can't be that accurate. I assume putting a vessel on a scale and measuring the weight of the water, right? Is there a simple way to do this?

 

[Oginme]

I got a piece of aluminum bar (2" by 1/4") from the hardware store and etched it with the volume markings. Filling up my kettle 1 liter at a time, I marked the level with a grease pen and then used a dremel to etch in the markings more permanently. The etched markings were filled with a black enamel to make the markings more permanent and to fill the etching so that they were easier to clean/sanitize.

You need to have a good, accurate measuring cup or you can fill it by weight (1 liter = 1000 grams at 20C).

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Best is weight. Second best is a ruler. Third best would be a DIY dip stick.

 

[Gustatorian]

Best is weight. Second best is a ruler. Third best would be a DIY dip stick.

Can you give me the specifics on how you weigh your water? I know a gallon is roughly 3.78 kg, but my scale doesn't measure to the 100th.

 

[McKnuckle]

Purchase a postal scale that resolves to grams and can handle a decent amount of weight. As you probably realize, water conveniently weighs in kilograms what it takes up in volume (liters). So either measure the water in liters directly, or convert to gallons by dividing liters by 3.785.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

1 gallon at room temperature weighs ~8.3304 lb.

The instrumental error of reading to the tenth decimal instead of hundreth is equivalent to less than 1 oz.

0.05 (lb) / 8.3304 (lb) = 0.006002112743

0.006002112743 * 1 (gallon) 164 (oz/gallon) ~= 0.77 oz

The maths a lot easier for metric of course, 0.05 kg = 0.05L. Being 0.05L off each time you measure the water is pretty dang accurate.

However when measuring by weight, you may run into maximum weight capacity issues with your scale, and having to measure it out several times. Which is where using a ruler comes ahead, simply stick it in the water, read the number and divide by your kettle/mashtuns constant height factor (height of 1 gallon/liter).

Example:
7.99 inches in my kettle = 5.25 gallons at room temp. With an instrumental uncertainty of 1/32nd inches, I have an accuracy of 5.25 gallons +- 2.625 oz (0.0205078125 gallons).

So unless my scale can weigh up to 15 lbs or so, the ruler is of relatively equal accuracy, but much less intensive.


*Those scientifically inclined, please ignore my miss treatment of sigfigs.

 

[GrogNerd]

I love that my 30qt kettle is a little over 15 inches tall

2qts per inch makes it very easy

 

[Oginme]

However when measuring by weight, you may run into maximum weight capacity issues with your scale, and having to measure it out several times. Which is where using a ruler comes ahead, simply stick it in the water, read the number and divide by your kettle/mashtuns constant height factor (height of 1 gallon/liter).

Example:
7.99 inches in my kettle = 5.25 gallons at room temp. With an instrumental uncertainty of 1/32nd inches, I have an accuracy of 5.25 gallons +- 2.625 oz (0.0205078125 gallons).

The only issue I have with this method is that the kettles are not always perfectly cylindrical. The chamfer where the bottom connects to the side walls can be any internal diameter which will throw off the measurement, even if it is just by a little.

I bought a heavy duty stock pot from a kitchen supply store and tried to use the ruler method and found myself waaay off in volumes. Come to find out the walls of the stock pot thinned out from the bottom to the top ever so slightly. Figured this out when I made my measuring stick and the space between the liter markings were getting closer together as I was filling the pot. I had tried to short cut the process by measuring several liters at once and then measuring to fill in the intermediate volumes. About the third time I measured and tried to fill in, the cm/liter calculation had dropped by about 12.5%.

For most kettles, this method may work fine, but make sure you know and/or check your measurements versus a known volume of liquid before relying on it completely.

 

[Gustatorian]

Going straight to the guys I trust:

Anybody know why "total grain" is measured as 19.47 lbs? Even with or without the rice hulls, this number is wrong. Am I overlooking something?

 

[day_trippr]

No idea where that math is coming from.
fwiw, yes, BS2 includes rices hulls in Total Grains. If I zero out the hulls the Total Grain goes to 19.38 lb...


Cheers!

 

[Gustatorian]

No idea where that math is coming from.
fwiw, yes, BS2 includes rices hulls in Total Grains. If I zero out the hulls the Total Grain goes to 19.38 lb...

View attachment 418012
Cheers!

I usually factor them in to calculate grain absorption rate. No reason to exlude them, correct? Yea this BS2 math just adds to the endless amount of frustration I have with this program.

 

[day_trippr]

No reason to exclude the hulls, but note that BS2 has no clue what they mean wrt absorption (it has no clue about hop absorption either, but I digress) I can't think of why you're getting wrong values there. I don't think even a non-unity scaling would cause that to happen...

Cheers!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Looks like rice hulls are included, but at some weird ratio (~54%). It might be due to differences in hulls grain absorption rate (although I haven't seen any trustworth citations for that). If so, I would be hesitant on how that fudge factor is changing your mash temp calculations.

Try changing the rice hulls to 1 lb. If my assumption is correct, the new total grains should be ~19.92lb.

 

[Oginme]

Since rice hulls absorb little water and aid with the drain age of free water, I moved them to the 'misc' items. Causes fewer issues.

 

[Gustatorian]

Since rice hulls absorb little water and aid with the drain age of free water, I moved them to the 'misc' items. Causes fewer issues.

Just wondering, do people use this software for commercial brewing? Seems like this would cause inexactitudes and inconsistencies that would drive someone insane...

 

[Oginme]

I know of 5 people who are commercial brewers who use this software and like it. One that is indifferent to it. There are several others that I think brew professionally but have no confirmation of it, all of whom like the software.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Small to mid sized breweries will likely use it, or some other software for the recipes and recipe notesheets. However once you get beyond a certain batch size, you'll find the breweries will have their own in-house spreadsheet.

Also you have to remember that they don't really do that many recipes, so it's a lot less software intensive than we need.

Out of the ones I've asked that use software that's not an in-house spreadsheet, it's about 50% beersmith, 50% everything else.

 

[Oginme]

Out of the ones I've asked that use software that's not an in-house spreadsheet, it's about 50% beersmith, 50% everything else.

This is probably very close to the actual split out there for commercial breweries. Also, they have their process so locked down (at least the successful ones) that there are really no challenges when making their few selected recipes.

 

[doug293cz]

Going straight to the guys I trust:

Anybody know why "total grain" is measured as 19.47 lbs? Even with or without the rice hulls, this number is wrong. Am I overlooking something?

No idea where that math is coming from.
fwiw, yes, BS2 includes rices hulls in Total Grains. If I zero out the hulls the Total Grain goes to 19.38 lb...

View attachment 418012
Cheers!

If I input your grain bill, I get the same results as @day_tripper. I suspect your issue has to do with rounding error. Try resetting your units using "Tools > Options > Units" to what is shown below, then close and reopen your recipe design. What do you see (post here)?



Brew on

 

[Gustatorian]

If I input your grain bill, I get the same results as @day_tripper. I suspect your issue has to do with rounding error. Try resetting your units using "Tools > Options > Units" to what is shown below, then close and reopen your recipe design. What do you see (post here)?

View attachment 418217

Brew on

Still seeing the same thing. Not changing my hop units to grams and I'm not changing my gravity units to 4.

 

[Gustatorian]

Looks like rice hulls are included, but at some weird ratio (~54%). It might be due to differences in hulls grain absorption rate (although I haven't seen any trustworth citations for that). If so, I would be hesitant on how that fudge factor is changing your mash temp calculations.

Try changing the rice hulls to 1 lb. If my assumption is correct, the new total grains should be ~19.92lb.

It changes it to 20.26 lbs when changed from 3.3 oz of hulls to a full pound