Geothermal Heating and Air Conditioning?

[Barc]

If your concerned about the company that installed the furnace going out of business, look around and see if there are any other certified dealers in the area to work on it. I looked up WaterFurnace and found 5 dealers within 50 miles of the little town I live in. It's population tips the scales at just under 2000 people.

Geo systems are not new. It's actually fairly simple, fairly old tech. They're just more popular, and competitive, now because of the high energy prices for oil and gas. I don't see those prices going down anytime soon and do see them rapidly increasing as the economy heats back up. Eventually, anyway.

I live near a fairly large metro area, as in several million folks within a 1 hour drive from me and there aren't all that many around here. I don't know if it is payback, humidity, or just lack of interest but there aren't that many around my area. And of those that are around, most want several $$$ up front to do a calculation... And don't get me started on doing calculations...

Agreed. These systems are fairly simple and old-tech, all things being equal. And you are correct about them being more competitive since there are more of them around, at least in certain markets... But, from my research, I've found that they are pretty much all about the same price, pound for pound, so to speak, or within a few dollars of each other. Maybe a cartel or something? As far as them rapidly increasing, I think it could go either way. It could be like some items where demand dictates a price or it could go like a lot of tech items where it actually goes down as more people get into the market with "newer" systems or just the fact that they have to lower prices to get more business... Time will tell.

 

[jgln]

I live near a fairly large metro area, as in several million folks within a 1 hour drive from me and there aren't all that many around here. I don't know if it is payback, humidity, or just lack of interest but there aren't that many around my area. And of those that are around, most want several $$$ up front to do a calculation... And don't get me started on doing calculations...

Agreed. These systems are fairly simple and old-tech, all things being equal. And you are correct about them being more competitive since there are more of them around, at least in certain markets... But, from my research, I've found that they are pretty much all about the same price, pound for pound, so to speak, or within a few dollars of each other. Maybe a cartel or something? As far as them rapidly increasing, I think it could go either way. It could be like some items where demand dictates a price or it could go like a lot of tech items where it actually goes down as more people get into the market with "newer" systems or just the fact that they have to lower prices to get more business... Time will tell.

I just checked the phone books in the area and only the company I am dealing with advertises geothermal systems. Maybe it is too new for contractors to bother being trained and sell these systems yet or maybe they just haven't advertised it much yet? They are a family run business or 50 people and have been around since 1945. I guess that does concern me a bit too. The limited 5 year warranty really concerns me. I think I will ask why it is so short. Let's face it, this is not just heat but AC too so 5 years is not much for such a system.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

5 years is pretty good. Most conventional systems only get a year manufacturers.

65 years of business concerns you? What, you want a startup with 400 employees?

 

[jgln]

The repair tech said the "motor" was shot and gave me an estimate of $500. A guy here suggested I buy the part and try replacing it myself. Just to see if I could even get it I called a supply house. He asked me which motor, there are 3. Another roadblock. He did tell me the motors run $100-200 maybe more. Just as well, I would probably run into issues I would not know how to resolve. But then again what harm could I do?

I think I am leaning more toward a new propane heater.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Pull the motor and get the plate data. they aren't hard to pull. Usually. A few screws and it "should" slide right out the front.

 

[jgln]

5 years is pretty good. Most conventional systems only get a year manufacturers.

65 years of business concerns you? What, you want a startup with 400 employees?

The propane heater comes with 10 years parts and labor.

No, just that it looks like right now they are the only company in the area that does it. If for whatever reason something happens or I have a bad experience I will not be able to shop around. Well, I bet I could find someone but who knows.

 

[jgln]

Pull the motor and get the plate data. they aren't hard to pull. Usually. A few screws and it "should" slide right out the front.

All I know at this point is it is probably the electric motor he was hitting with a screwdriver, but then again that could be because it was most accessible. How am I to know which motor for sure he thinks is bad without tracking down the tech to talk to. I guess I could try that but if they feel I am trying to do it myself or getting someone else the information may come back sketchy. I would also need to be sure I could return the motor should it not fix the problem. I did just ask the salesman, a licensed HVAC guy and family member, which part he thought was bad and he just said the motor.

 

[uglygoat]

How do the pipes in a 6 foot trench rupture?

it could be a **** install on the underground piping. good luck proving it.

 

[Nova5]

Water from a well? a ground source heatpump might work if you have water around the right temp. 64 degrees is what the well temp is at my parents place, they use the GSHP, and the waste water is driven through a sprinkler system to return it to the soil.

 

[jgln]

Water from a well? a ground source heatpump might work if you have water around the right temp. 64 degrees is what the well temp is at my parents place, they use the GSHP, and the waste water is driven through a sprinkler system to return it to the soil.

I just heard about that option this morning. The problem this guy saw with it was the water used could not permeate back into the ground fast enough and created swamp conditions in the yard. My well is really just a 6" or so tube so I bet they would still need to drill. To me that kind of seems like a waste of water in the aquifer. I wonder how long before environmentalists complain geo thermal is heating or cooling the earth too much and it must be stopped.

I called a guy who used to work for this company before he quit recently. Said dispatcher was trying to tell him how to do his job even though she was not an HVAC tech ( I thought maybe for doing side jobs?). I did not call him originally because I thought he still worked for them and would be working. He has helped me out for free several times. He came over and actually took the motor apart and showed me the seized motor. No charge. Today he is going to try and track down just the motor instead of the whole assembly and call me back.

 

[jgln]

Water from a well? a ground source heatpump might work if you have water around the right temp. 64 degrees is what the well temp is at my parents place, they use the GSHP, and the waste water is driven through a sprinkler system to return it to the soil.

I just noticed where you live but not sure where your parents are but up here in winter the sprinkler system would not work and if the ground remains frozen all that water would create a pond (frozen?), my guess anyway.

 

[Barc]

I just heard about that option this morning. The problem this guy saw with it was the water used could not permeate back into the ground fast enough and created swamp conditions in the yard. My well is really just a 6" or so tube so I bet they would still need to drill. To me that kind of seems like a waste of water in the aquifer. I wonder how long before environmentalists complain geo thermal is heating or cooling the earth too much and it must be stopped.

A lot of these types of systems dump the water back into the well, as in 2 holes, a supply and a return. But, I have heard that this isn't allowed in certain areas, due to contamination concerns, so the water must be dumped on the ground. Depending on your water use and ground conditions, you can easily create a swamp...

And so far as environmentalists area concerned, some are for it since they see it as helping conserve energy to some extent and others are against it due to localized ground heating. As in everything, you're always going to have some people for it and some against it.

 

[mmb]

Open loop systems use water off your well head and dump it to a drainage of some kind. Didn't go with that because I didn't want run off water in the ditch 365 days a year.

As far as I remember, the open loop system would have been about 7k cheaper that the closed loop system we went with. I was told the well head injection system wasn't available in this area because of drainage issues. *shrug*

 

[jgln]

I just heard about that option this morning. The problem this guy saw with it was the water used could not permeate back into the ground fast enough and created swamp conditions in the yard. My well is really just a 6" or so tube so I bet they would still need to drill. To me that kind of seems like a waste of water in the aquifer. I wonder how long before environmentalists complain geo thermal is heating or cooling the earth too much and it must be stopped.

I called a guy who used to work for this company before he quit recently. Said dispatcher was trying to tell him how to do his job even though she was not an HVAC tech ( I thought maybe for doing side jobs?). I did not call him originally because I thought he still worked for them and would be working. He has helped me out for free several times. He came over and actually took the motor apart and showed me the seized motor. No charge. Today he is going to try and track down just the motor instead of the whole assembly and call me back.

He also told me he believed the warranty was only 5 years as opposed to the 10 year on the gas heater was the fact the pump is pretty much working all the time so they get more wear on them in much less time. Makes sense.

 

[mmb]

There are also stipulations based on how much pressure and gph your pump can deliver. I don't remember what they were off the top of my head.

 

[shmoo]

i actually work for a company and we install and service geothermal heat pumps. basically if your building a new house, youd be stupid not to put one in just because its way easier and nothings in the way. and you dont have to worry about the yard getting torn up by the drillers or excavators. no one we installed systems for has ever complained about their electric bill since switching over. one house i know for sure is about 4000 square feet and their electric bill is 200 a month, they have 2 geothermal systems in their house. also depending on which systems you go with you can choose the option of running radiant floor heat off the system as well. most systems offer desuperheater options on them which is basically recirculating and making hot water for your house, so you will also save there, and trust me, these things do produce probably 20-30 percent of the hot water! oh and the warrantys, if you go with some of the better companies such as water furnace or climatemaster, you will get a 10 year parts and labor warranty on the units. which is way better than a typical hvac system which is usually only 5 year parts and 1 year labor. yes the best way would be to do a closed system say in a pond but you will need a fairly decent sized pond if your house is larger. but typically if your doing a vertical closed loop system its 150-200 feet per ton. ussually well drilling costs will be somewhere in the 15-20 bucks a foot depending on the driller. but until 2016 the government is offering a 30% tax rebate on installation of geothermal systems, that includes the well drilling as well.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I agree to the above post by shmoo

This is what I have in my home. It all stainless steel too! :rockin:


http://www.hydronmodule.com/h-two-stage

 

[jgln]

I found a guy who does HVAC on his own and says he located a new motor and will replace (labor and parts) for $200, $300 less than the company. He also have me an option for a new heater for $2k (after tax credit), $1k less than the company. He does not do geothermal installations though but does know how to work on them.

I am still undecided about going geothermal so I am going to let him fix my current heater for $200.

 

[mmb]

that looks a lot like my waterfurnace, except that the fluid ports are on the opposite side from the air intake and mine is blue.

 

[michael20]

Even in regions without large high temperature geothermal resources, a geothermal heat pump can still provide space heating and air conditioning.


Heating And Air