I used gelatin finings on beer for the first time. The beer turned out amazingly clear. Is there any reason to NOT use it on any beers? I have several batches in different stages. Everything from a super light beer to a robust porter and an oatmeal stout. I want to use it to clear em all but don't want to mess up for the sake of clarity.
Gelatin finings
- Thread starter OHIOSTEVE
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android
Well-Known Member
i don't think there's any real harm in using it, so proceed.
FireNightFly
Well-Known Member
Thats really interesting Steve. I may have to give it a try on some of my lighter colored beers. Not sure about the darker colored ones tho, wouldnt one want to keep it dark and unlcear? Anywho, glad to see it worked out. 
robertvrabel
Well-Known Member
OHIOSTEVE, can you explain what you did while using the geletain finings? I purchased this from NB: http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/gelatin-finings.html .. but from what I've read online vs the directions on the bottle... they are completly different.
The bottle says to boil the water, and online i read you should not.
The bottle says to boil the water, and online i read you should not.
azscoob
Brewpub coming soon!
I boil the water first to kill any nasties, cool to 170-175° add gelatin and disolve into water. I let it cool to 100ish and pitch into fermenter, I then drop fermenter temp to 32-33°F and let it clear for a few days, then I keg and carb.
robertvrabel
Well-Known Member
Do you HAVE to cool it to down under 40F? I have no way of cooling it that much, unless I left it in my garage in the winter. Just curious if it would still do anything at all, if it was left at say 60F.
Myke_J
Well-Known Member
DO NOT BOIL THE GELATIN
(not yelling, just getting our attention
)
Boiling the gelatin will break it down and it will not work as well or possibly at all. Ideally, you don't want to get the gelatin mixture above around 180F. I do my gelatin additions two different ways depending on how much time I have. Both give identical results.
1: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let it cool to around 170F. Pour in gelatin, stir it in, and let it cool to under 100F. I usually stir it a few times while it's cooling so it doesn't seperate from the water. I then dump it into the carboy that's been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
2: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let cool to room temp while I run around and take care of over things. Pour gelatin into room temp water and let sit for about 10 mins, then put on the stove and bring it to 175-180, but do not let it boil! I then cover it once again and let it cool to under 100F and pour into my carboy that has been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
With either method, I let them sit for 3-5 days and then keg and carb. My beers have been exceptionally clear and without a hint of chill haze.
(not yelling, just getting our attention
)Boiling the gelatin will break it down and it will not work as well or possibly at all. Ideally, you don't want to get the gelatin mixture above around 180F. I do my gelatin additions two different ways depending on how much time I have. Both give identical results.
1: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let it cool to around 170F. Pour in gelatin, stir it in, and let it cool to under 100F. I usually stir it a few times while it's cooling so it doesn't seperate from the water. I then dump it into the carboy that's been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
2: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let cool to room temp while I run around and take care of over things. Pour gelatin into room temp water and let sit for about 10 mins, then put on the stove and bring it to 175-180, but do not let it boil! I then cover it once again and let it cool to under 100F and pour into my carboy that has been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
With either method, I let them sit for 3-5 days and then keg and carb. My beers have been exceptionally clear and without a hint of chill haze.
That's my question, as well. I've got a conical and live in SoCal, so very unlikely for me to get it under 40F any time soon. At best, I can get it down to maybe 60 overnight in the garage.
If that doesn't work, then I guess I'd need to keg first and add when it my kegerator. Hoping to avoid doing that though.
Anyone?
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
They work at room temp for me. I hear they work BETTER if cold. ....... I thought my beer was clear until I looked a couple of days after the gelatin. There was a HUGE amount of "stuff" on the bottom.
I'm sold. Gonna go turn off the li'l heating 'blanket' I've got on the fermenter so that I can cool it down a wee bit overnight!
DO NOT BOIL THE GELATIN
(not yelling, just getting our attention
Boiling the gelatin will break it down and it will not work as well or possibly at all. Ideally, you don't want to get the gelatin mixture above around 180F. I do my gelatin additions two different ways depending on how much time I have. Both give identical results.
1: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let it cool to around 170F. Pour in gelatin, stir it in, and let it cool to under 100F. I usually stir it a few times while it's cooling so it doesn't seperate from the water. I then dump it into the carboy that's been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
2: Boil water for 15 mins, cover and let cool to room temp while I run around and take care of over things. Pour gelatin into room temp water and let sit for about 10 mins, then put on the stove and bring it to 175-180, but do not let it boil! I then cover it once again and let it cool to under 100F and pour into my carboy that has been cold crashing for around 24 hours.
With either method, I let them sit for 3-5 days and then keg and carb. My beers have been exceptionally clear and without a hint of chill haze.
I want to try this, but one more question:
After you let them sit for the last 3-5 days (in the cold I assume?), do you mix in the priming sugar and bring back to room temperature for carbing and conditioning, and after 2-3 weeks at room temperature, put the bottles or kegs in the fridge to cool down for consumption.
Just wondering if all my assumptions are correct.
wyzazz
Well-Known Member
Steve, if you use any of that gelatin on a Hefe or American Wheat I'll find you and beat you with an empty CO2 tank.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
Steve, if you use any of that gelatin on a Hefe or American Wheat I'll find you and beat you with an empty CO2 tank.
lol..ok gotcha!!
DO NOT BOIL THE GELATIN
(not yelling, just getting our attention
Boiling the gelatin will break it down and it will not work as well or possibly at all. Ideally, you don't want to get the gelatin mixture above around 180F.
This is a common misconception that people who are largely unfamiliar with protein science tend to have. As a molecular scientist who works in protein chemistry in the Bay Area, I can tell you outright that boiling the gelatin will not affect the performance. This is due in large part to two things:
1) Gelatin is simply hydrolyzed collagen, and is often produced by boiling source material rich in collagen in a mild acid to encourage hydrolysis. Boiling is an actual step that speeds up hydrolysis that many manufacturers use.
2) Collagen, and therefore gelatin, is a protein/peptide based material. So, while boiling (or even heating to 180 F) would affect the structure, the structure is not what results in the clearing effect seen with the use of gelatin as a fining agent.
The approximate amino acid composition of gelatin is: glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%, alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%, hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. The clearing effect of gelatin arises due to the fact that, at the pH of beer, the collagen is highly positively charged, allowing it to bind to negatively charged molecules/cells. The positive charge arises NOT because of structure, but because:
- the pH is slightly higher than the pKa of side chains (carboxylic acids) on aspartic acid and glutamic acid, making them negatively charged, but only slightly so, as the pH of beer is only slightly higher than the pKa of these acid sidechains.
- the pH is significantly lower than the pKa of sidechains (primary and secondary amines) on proline, hydroxyproline, arginine, lysine, and hydroxylysine, making them very positively charged. The positive charge resulting from these residues is not only enough to offset the small amount of negative charge on the glutamic and aspartic acids, but it is sufficiently high enough to give a large positive charge to the overall gelatin molecules.
The remainder of the amino acids in the structure have primarily hydrophobic side chains, and do not result in contribution to charge.
So, if you have been boiling your gelatin, fear not. It should have no affect on the ability of gelatin to fine your beer. The pH of your beer and the temperature at which you fine are the 2 most important factors.
wonderbread23
Well-Known Member
I've hit highly hoppy beers (two different ones) with gelatin and in my perceptual analysis, some hop flavor and aroma was removed with the gelatin. The sample size is quite small, but this anecdotal evidence was enough for me to stop hitting my hoppy beers with gelatin.
Yeah, but there is always more to discuss!
I probably wouldn't have seen this thread just browsing the forums, after hearing about the amazing results, I think i will be trying some gelatin on my English IPA. I do like a nice clear beer, even if it does tastes the same.
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Better than starting a new thread on an existing topic IMO.
Well that's something new! Thanks for that biobrewer. I'm going to do a little experiment to support your statements there.
Thanks for pointing that out!
AgentHubcap
Well-Known Member
When do you add this?
Can I add to my primary if I don't secondary?
Will this affect yeast washing?
Can I add to my primary if I don't secondary?
Will this affect yeast washing?
Well that's something new! Thanks for that biobrewer. I'm going to do a little experiment to support your statements there.
Thanks for pointing that out!
No problem. I love getting into the molecular aspects of why certain processes work the way they do.
I generally add it to secondary. I will typically soak in cold water for an hour, boil to dissolve, cool to about 70 F, and add to my beer which I then place at 34-38 F for 5-7 days. Always works great. You can typically see it in action, and it appears as phases separating. Just don't use more than the 1.5 g/5 gallons for beer, as it can actually start stripping components of the beer that are associated with body.
Also, I would not add it prior to washing yeast. You do not want to crash a bunch of proteins onto yeast you wish to reuse. I would wash the yeast from the bottom of the primary, add the gelatin to secondary, and chuck whatever settles in secondary after racking your beer to a keg/bottling bucket.
Do you mean 1.5 grams per gal of beer or 1.5G total?
How much would you use for 5gal?
That is an interesting observation, and I believe there might be a good molecular explanation.
As I mentioned in my post above, while there are a lot of positively charged amino acid residues that result in binding of negatively charged molecules/cells, there is a fraction of gelatin's amino acids that are hydrophobic (glycine, alanine, leucine, isoleucine, phenylalanine, tyrosine). While the large amount of positive charge would initially hinder binding of hydrophobic molecules, as negatively charged molecules/cells bind to the gelatin, the net charge would decrease and approach a more neutral charge. At this point, if there are runs of several hydrophobic amino acids that form a hydrophobic domain, hydrophobic molecules could now associate with these hydrophobic domains and get pulled out of solution as the aggregate precipitates.
Many of the flavor compounds that we associate with hop flavor and aroma are hydrophobic. So, as negatively charged molecules/cells bind to the gelatin and the net charge approaches a more neutral charge, you may be seeing binding of hop compounds to the gelatin, thus reducing hop flavor.
However, in order to bind a hydrophobic molecule, there would likely have to be a run of several hydrophobic residues in the gelatin, and the surrounding charge would have to be neutralized. With the large ratio of positive charge to hydrophobic residues, you shouldn't see too much of a decrease though if you are using at the recommended amounts (~1.5 g/5 gallons). I typically use 1.5 g/6 gallons, and it works great, even in heavily hopped beers.
Cheers!
^^^Ditto^^^ biobrewer +1. I use it to clear wine and a couple times in beer, once at flame out, and another time at the end of primary & cold crash. It works very well, but leaves a slime pile at the bottom of the vessel. Gelatin acts like a magnet in suspension until it gathers enough particle to sink. Think slimy jello, and forget washing the yeast. Use a secondary to try it and start a new batch on the yeast in the primary bucket. Good info as to boiling the jello, you do have to get it above 170f and keep it there to kill any nasty stuff before adding it to your fermenting vessel; also stir it until cool and stir in gently to mix well in your brew. Cheers
Interesting stuff!!
Thanks for the info.
Cheers!!
Thanks for the info.
Cheers!!
I have never added it dry, but from what I understand from talking to others and what I empirically understand about solution chemistry, it will not hydrate properly if you simply add it to beer, and will therefore not go into solution. If something is not in solution, it cannot interact with molecules in solution and bind them.
By soaking it, you hydrate the gelatin molecules and by heating/boiling, you dissolve the gelatin molecules into solution. Once in solution, the gelatin can be added to beer and interact with negatively charged proteins/cells.
Cheers!
