Gas fired Recirc: HLT? MT? Side wall?

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Gadjobrinus

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Alright guys, I am working with Spike and as I want to give them a formal query, I do hope to pin a few things down. I know I asked a question earlier on Tees and pump air bleeding. I hope this isn't duplicative; I'll try and let it not be.

1. Spike's turnkey e-system is beautiful, in my opinion. They recirculate their HLT, like I think any of you do. I'd like to do the same, even if I'm manually firing the gas. I don't know if looping a recirc is necessary - all vessels start at 2', I can easily stir with a paddle from time to time to see the HLT temp and work gradients away. What do you guys think - if yes, how would you do it, with a gas system? And I presume it stops, obviously, with the start of sparging. Yes?

2. They constantly recirculate their mash and not only obtain clear wort early in the mashing cycle because of it, but obtain very high brewhouse efficiencies. I understand how that would work with an e-system but do not see how to safely do it with a gas system, due to risking local scorching. Thoughts?

3. I was interested in Ss Brewtech's vorlauf "disc." It appears the disc is attached to the inside of the MT via weldless fitting. I asked Spike if they could do something that would fit this, and they said while they don't, what they recommend is a side pickup tube that runs along the inner wall. They do this for both vorlauf and sparging.

I am stuck in an earlier time, I sincerely know. I'm accustomed to a kind of ring that "sprinkles" the entire bed of the wort, and am having a hard time seeing how these newer things - mostly, how a simple tube on top of the mash, or a float ball, or, as here, a pickup tube that lies alongside the side of the mash - doesn't give you severe channeling. Can someone convince me it works well? I say that, because it would solve everything to have Spike put the upper port in, a side tube, and done for both recirc and sparge.

4. Finally, on their MT, they have their thermal probe in a Tee off the tun, before the valve. I've seen this before in other applications. I'm trying to see how that would give you an accurate read on mash temp. Is this predicated on constant recirc, as those guys do?

Thanks for any help on this.
 
1. Spike's turnkey e-system is beautiful, in my opinion. They recirculate their HLT, like I think any of you do. I'd like to do the same, even if I'm manually firing the gas. I don't know if looping a recirc is necessary - all vessels start at 2', I can easily stir with a paddle from time to time to see the HLT temp and work gradients away. What do you guys think - if yes, how would you do it, with a gas system? And I presume it stops, obviously, with the start of sparging. Yes?

Recirculating or otherwise mixing the HLT is needed for HERMs systems. I think your occasional mix with a mash paddle is more than sufficient for direct fire mash tun. I don't even bother stirring it unless adding brewing salts or acid.

2. They constantly recirculate their mash and not only obtain clear wort early in the mashing cycle because of it, but obtain very high brewhouse efficiencies. I understand how that would work with an e-system but do not see how to safely do it with a gas system, due to risking local scorching. Thoughts?

I do this just fine. In a much cheaper pot and no scorching issues. I use a small burner (one of the 4" low pressure burners) with a very low flame. Initially turned it off and on by hand until I built a controller based on Blichmann Tower of Power (see Blichmann has one for gas and one for electric). Works great. I added a rotometer to my pump out to keep track of my flow rate during mash and lauter and do keep my flow rate over 1 GPM (usually close to 2 GPM) anytime the burner might come on. Norcal false bottom works great for keeping a high flow rate in the mash tun.

3. I was interested in Ss Brewtech's vorlauf "disc." It appears the disc is attached to the inside of the MT via weldless fitting. I asked Spike if they could do something that would fit this, and they said while they don't, what they recommend is a side pickup tube that runs along the inner wall. They do this for both vorlauf and sparging.

I am stuck in an earlier time, I sincerely know. I'm accustomed to a kind of ring that "sprinkles" the entire bed of the wort, and am having a hard time seeing how these newer things - mostly, how a simple tube on top of the mash, or a float ball, or, as here, a pickup tube that lies alongside the side of the mash - doesn't give you severe channeling. Can someone convince me it works well? I say that, because it would solve everything to have Spike put the upper port in, a side tube, and done for both recirc and sparge.

Yes you are stuck in the old days. I do use the Blichmann autosparge and have zero issues. I like that I am not having to balance my mash tun liquid level and that I am not over aerating my mash. I could only imagine using a sprinkle type system for sparging (hot water onto the grain bed) but my experience with the tube on top is fine.

4. Finally, on their MT, they have their thermal probe in a Tee off the tun, before the valve. I've seen this before in other applications. I'm trying to see how that would give you an accurate read on mash temp. Is this predicated on constant recirc, as those guys do?

Thanks for any help on this.

I have my temp probe on a T on the out side of my pump. This is based on the recommendation in the Blichmann ToP instructions and seems to work great. I think mash temperature is most important for dialing in repeatable recipes and so while I am not 100% sure my 152F is the same 152F my buddy is getting in his cooler mash tun I am quite sure my 152F is the same 152F I brewed this batch at last time I made it. Consistency is the key.
 
Wow, that was incredibly helpful - very grateful, Eric (I'd give a standing ovation "like" for that one, if I could). One last, likely dumb, question. Well, 2. So your temp probe is on a tee on the outflow of your pump. Is it before or after your valve? And this way, you're measuring both the recirc'ing mash temp, and runoff temp, yes?
 
Wow, that was incredibly helpful - very grateful, Eric (I'd give a standing ovation "like" for that one, if I could). One last, likely dumb, question. Well, 2. So your temp probe is on a tee on the outflow of your pump. Is it before or after your valve? And this way, you're measuring both the recirc'ing mash temp, and runoff temp, yes?

You are welcome.

Mash tun > bottom valve > pump > tee with temp probe > rotometer > top valve > auto sparge > mash tun

I control recirc flow with the top valve.

When I switch from recirc to latter I move the hose connecting rotometer to top valve to go from rotometer to brew kettle in and control flow with the brew kettle in valve.

Here is an old picture.
3v-recirc-brewstand-0602-64881.jpg


I moved the valve that is on the tee up to the mash tun inlet port in order to make room for the rotometer. This was before I added automation. I really need to take a new picture but think you can see general idea here. Note this is in lauter mode...during recirc the wort is pumped back to the mash tun.
 
Eric, thanks. I know this is going to seem lame but I have to look at your photo and consider what you're saying a few times. Basically spinning with confusion (I know. Lame. My thing, just is). Thanks for the earlier help once again and I'll "get" this on sitting with it.
 
Eric, thanks. I know this is going to seem lame but I have to look at your photo and consider what you're saying a few times. Basically spinning with confusion (I know. Lame. My thing, just is). Thanks for the earlier help once again and I'll "get" this on sitting with it.

Hey Gadjobrinus..I took some pictures of my setup last weekend and realized I mispoke above about where I have my Temperature probe. It is before pump not after. Was originally after but when I added the rotometer I got worried about plastic too close to fire and decided to move the temp probe to where it is now. Looks like my brewstand could use a cleaning day.

brew-stand-pics---1-68416.jpg
 
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