Funky flavor in my hefe

[okiedog]

What is that funky flavor in my wheat beer? None of my other beers have this character. You're going to tell me I have an infection, right? I have been fortunate not to have any infection until (probably) now. I have brewed quite a few wheat beers in the last few years. But until recently, I have never had any off flavor such as this. It has a slight funky aroma and flavor. I've tried 2 different strains: WLP351 and WY3068, and both have this character. The first hefe that I brewed with WLP351 turned out great, but when I repitched the slurry, the funk showed up. A hefe fermented with WY3068 from the package had a slight bit of funk, and the 2nd batch which was pitched from slurry has a considerable amount of funk. It is drinkable, not too unpleasant, but does not taste like a hefe.

 

[dmtaylor]

Impossible to say for sure without drinking it. First questions I would have: what is your water source, is it chlorinated, and do you treat it for chlorine? If you are using chlorinated city water, this can lead to a medicinal flavor known as chlorophenol. Simple treatment of your water with Campden prior to brewing would prevent this flavor. If that's not the issue, then perhaps contamination is possible. Do you have any plastic or rubber components to your fermentation equipment with some age, like older than 18 months? Are there any places for critters to hide out in fittings? Check all that, replace as necessary, and hope for the best next time. If your problem is neither of those, ask friends or enter competitions to see if others can give you ideas of what's happened... or possibly that it's just all in your head and everything tastes fine.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Describe this "funky" flavor you're tasting, as the term "funky" can mean different things to different people. Sulfur? Medicinal? Spice/clove? Ham/hot dog water? Brett-like? Something else?

Help us to help you by offering more of a description.

 

[okiedog]

My brewing water is distilled water, plus CaCl and CaSO4. I do clean fermentors, kegs, hoses, etc. with tap water, but use boiled distilled water to rinse fermentors and kegs. The "funky" flavor is hard to describe. I almost think it is some sort of mold, but it doesn't have that strong amount of unpleasantness.

 

[dyqik]

What temperatures are you fermenting at, and is the room/chamber temperature or the beer temperature (measured with a thermowell)? What pitch rate? How much slurry did you use, and how did you keep it between batches?

 

[okiedog]

Ferm. temps read on fermometer 66F free rise to 70F over about 3 days. Then held at about 70F for remainder of time in fermentor (11 days). For last hefe, which has the most notable off flavor, I pitched 1 smack pack of WY3068 at about 66F. The previous batch was from 2nd gen (1st slurry) WLP351. I pitched about a cup of 1 month old slurry. It was fermenting within 12 hours.

After much thought, It definitely isn't moldy. I had worried about mold because we had some water in the house from a tree punching through our roof 3 months ago. It's dry now though. But, I think I know what it is. It has a soft, slight citrusy tartness to it. About the time this funky stuff showed up, I had started a lacto culture, or sauergut. Somehow, I must have cross contaminated it with my yeast or wort. The more I drink this though, the more I like it, but I don't get the clove and banana that I like in my hefes.

 

[dyqik]

That's fairly high, probably too high, a temperature for a hefe - the general recommendation (e.g. in Brewing Classic Styles) is to pitch and keep fermentation temperatures at 62F. Other people here have mentioned getting tartness at higher temperatures, without infection, and have recommended mashing high to keep the fg a bit higher as well.

 

[okiedog]

I agree, dyqik. It got warmer than I intended. I tried to keep at or below 68F, where I have had good results before. But we had a couple of unseasonably warm days that drove the temp up. I would expect fusel alcohols from too high ferm. temps though. The previous brew where this flavor and aroma started to show up though, was fermented at 62F, and never got over 67F through keg conditioning.

 

[dyqik]

Searching here seems to suggest that it's something that should be in the style. I guess it might be the yeast pushing the pH of the beer a bit lower than you like. Searching here for "hefe tartness", it can reportedly be discouraged by an acid rest, but that seems to have more to do with encouraging clove character (which might mask the tartness). Mashing higher was another recommendation to keep it under control, which I guess masks the acidity with a bit of longer chain sugars.

 

[okiedog]

Well, I racked a Gose to secondary that was fermented with the culture from my suaergut, and it has a soft fruity, citrusy sourness/tartness, but none of the funky smell or flavor. Actually, I think the funk part is mostly aroma. It smells more like an old sour mash, where left over fruits an veggies and their scraps were thrown into a barrel to ferment by open, wild fermentation. This beer retains the tartness, but tastes better every day. The funk seems to be mellowing or dissipating.

 

[JordanKnudson]

Are you certain that it is not simply the taste of the yeast itself still in suspension? That taste/smell always makes me go, "What's that musty funkiness in there," and hefe yeasts do like to stay in suspension...

 

[okiedog]

I have never gotten anything that smelled and tasted like this from any beer I've brewed, or any strain of yeast I've used. To me, hefe yeasts have a bready taste, and the yeast is supposed to stay in suspension. That yeast in suspension is part of the flavor of a good hefeweizen. This current "funky hefe" is almost gone. The funky smell is fading, but still present. The funky flavor is all but gone, but the sour/tart flavor is still there. I wish I had a Ph meter, so I could take reading.

 

[okiedog]

Since there has been considerable change to my funky tasting hefe, I thought I should update this post with the details.

Drinking this beer today, I find the following:

1. Only a slight funky aroma
2. No funky flavor
3. Light mouthfeel
4. Citrusy flavor
5. Tart, Spritzy and light
6. After it warms up in the glass, it is almost clear

I hate to admit it, but maybe it was a yeast problem caused by ferm. temps that were too high. (Funk starts to dissipate as yeast settles out?)

 

[Smellyglove]

I was about to ask if that "funk" was tartness. 351 has a slight tartness to it, 3068 not so, if fermented in the right temperatures. I'd say you don't want to go over 66F. If you have temperature control you can push up against the boundaries, with leting it rise after capping it during active fermentation. Hefe ferments pretty vigorously. I didn't se you mentioning if the fermentation temps were actual fermentation temps, or ambient temps, if they were ambient, then the temp in the fermenter was most likely way higher. If you're able to pitch low, and let it free rise so it doesn't go above 62, you should be fine. If you have temp control you can swing it up to 66 ish, and still get a good hefe, but with a different character then at 62.

 

[okiedog]

Smellyglove, the funk I'm referring to is definitely not the tartness, though the tartness may be caused by the same issue. What I am calling "funky" is a smell that I can't quite figure out. I know I've run across that smell before, but not in any beer I have brewed. There is noticeable tartness in this beer, but it is that funky, sort of pig slop smell that is so distracting. I do use a fermometer to determine temps. I estimate the internal temps by adding about 5 degrees during active fermentation. Wyeast lists the temperature range for 3068 at 64-75F. Funk is not a character that I would expect from fermentation temps being a few degrees too high. Strong esters and fusel alcohols, I would expect. I may be wrong, I am still leaning toward it being an infection from some wild organism.

 

[angrybits]

You might try WB-06 on your next hefe. It tolerates higher temps quite well and does not have the unpleasant aromas that I used to get with 3068.

 

[okiedog]

Thanks, angrybits, but I don't plan on fermenting again where and when I can't control temps to the desired range. By the way, I apologize for not updating this post sooner. I am quite certain that the problem was an infection from CO2 lines. I forgot to bleed of pressure from one of my kegs when I hooked it up to the CO2 in my fridge, and some beer got in the line(s) and contaminated it. The real problem: no check valve.

 

[angrybits]

Fair enough, but the temp range of WB-06 is 64F to 75F so you can get away with ambient if needed. Glad you identified your issue.

 

[okiedog]

Fair enough, but the temp range of WB-06 is 64F to 75F so you can get away with ambient if needed. Glad you identified your issue.

I'm glad too! Several times here on HBT, I've read of people having infections, and I had never had (nor wanted) such a problem. I have a kluge consisting of a 4-way and a tee for my co2 setup. There is a check valve at the regulator, but none to isolate the path keg to keg. I cleaned and sanitized my whole setup, but my first priority will be to replace it all with a manifold with individual check valves and new lines.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

@okiedog - have your hops or IBUs changed recently? Or your boil?

I've noticed that if I try to "push it" a little too far with low-IBU beers, then there's going to be a bit of tartness that could possibly cross over into funk. I'm not sure if you've ever had a Berliner Weiss, but is it similar in character to that (except not as much)?

An extreme example of this was when I brewed a dandelion gruit, which had no hops at all. It was tart and somewhat funky - and very refreshing on a hot summer day after mowing our lawn...and the dandelions.

 

[Norselord]

dollars to donuts this is a natural yeast smell.

 

[JordanKnudson]

dollars to donuts this is a natural yeast smell.

That was my suggestion as well, but OP seemed pretty certain that this was not the case. On the other hand, no cause was ever specifically identified, so I still suspect that it was the smell/taste of the yeast itself.

 

[okiedog]

No changes in the recipe, hops or IBU's. After a couple of weeks, the tart flavor had mostly subsided, but that "swamp" aroma was still evident, if not as strong. Whatever caused that smell was nothing I've run across in any of my previous wheat beers, or any other beer. The hefe that I have in the fridge now was fermented low and using washed slurry from the "swampy" batch. It has a small hint of that swampy character, but very minimal. So... maybe it wasn't my co2 lines. I will try again with fresh yeast. I'm out of malt right now, but when I do brew my next batch, I will keep you posted.

 

[Smellyglove]

Repitching hefe yeast is very difficult. I've been repitching other ale and lager-strains over and over, but the hefe-strains (fluid ones) are seriously difficult to do. A slight overpitch and it at least smells, and might taste, like you'd want to dump it. If it's bottom-harvested it's even worse. Don't take hefes from the bottom post fermentation, if that's what you've done (sorry, didn't read the whole thread). They funk up really fast if you bottom harvest them. You'll se a lower pH with some funk to them unless you REALLY know what you're doing, which calls for a microscope. I first thought this yeast in question was a 1st gen yeast.

I've brewed some hefe's (I brew them ALL the time, two, maybe three times pr month (small batches)) where I just went WTF, until I realized it was my yeast management.

Now I go the fresh pack + 2 gens topcrop, then start over.

Edit: I read your OP again, you stated allready there that you repitched. I bet my ass that it's the repitch, and like I said above, if you bottom harvested it, I'd say that that's your cause to the funk. I brew these all the time, and repitching these little guys correctly is an artform. Topcrop, and go no more than 3 gens. I belive it's overpitching combined with how they naturally morph into this funky semi sour crap.

 

[Smellyglove]

You might try WB-06 on your next hefe. It tolerates higher temps quite well and does not have the unpleasant aromas that I used to get with 3068.

wb-06 has nothing to do with a hefeweizen. It makes a decent semi-Wit if fermented at it's upper range (24C), but it's not a yeast you'd want to use for a hefeweizen.

 

[safcraft]

Repitching hefe yeast is very difficult. I've been repitching other ale and lager-strains over and over, but the hefe-strains (fluid ones) are seriously difficult to do. A slight overpitch and it at least smells, and might taste, like you'd want to dump it. If it's bottom-harvested it's even worse. Don't take hefes from the bottom post fermentation, if that's what you've done (sorry, didn't read the whole thread). They funk up really fast if you bottom harvest them. You'll se a lower pH with some funk to them unless you REALLY know what you're doing, which calls for a microscope. I first thought this yeast in question was a 1st gen yeast.

I've brewed some hefe's (I brew them ALL the time, two, maybe three times pr month (small batches)) where I just went WTF, until I realized it was my yeast management.

Now I go the fresh pack + 2 gens topcrop, then start over.

Edit: I read your OP again, you stated allready there that you repitched. I bet my ass that it's the repitch, and like I said above, if you bottom harvested it, I'd say that that's your cause to the funk. I brew these all the time, and repitching these little guys correctly is an artform. Topcrop, and go no more than 3 gens. I belive it's overpitching combined with how they naturally morph into this funky semi sour crap.

I second this. I have a similar thread here regarding this same yeast : Wyeast 3068.
I was over the moon with what was causing the bad taste and smell, looking for infections, water, mash techniques...
In the end, i believe nailed it to the Yeast. I am stressing it and although i quite don't know why, i am pretty sure this is a hard to handle yeast.

Be carefull when using it, make a proper starter, aerate well, do not overpitch or underpitch, do not temperature shock them .
I did not know that bottom harvest would be a problem...all this shows that this is really a finicky yeast....damn...i really love Hefes.

I had a particular success story with a similar strain, i don't know if it is "tougher" than this one. I used the WYEAST 3638 to make a Hefe and it turned out beautifull. After bottling, i made a Dunkel and dropped that DIRECTLY into the YEAST CAKE (i am sure it was overpitch, i had TONS of bottom yeast there). It turned out FANTASTIC.

So, maybe i will be using the 3638 again.
Current status : I used a fresh pack of 3068 yesterday , 24h starter of 1 litre and make a Weizenbock (OG 1.070). It is currently fermenting, if it turns out BAD TASTE again, i am definitly never EVER using this strain again...

 

[okiedog]

Smellyglove, sorry for the confusion. To clarify, the swampy hefe was pitched from a starter of straight from the store WY3068 smackpack. I did re-pitch from slurry of the first batch, and that is now in my serving fridge with reduced swampy character. Now after reading posts from you and safcraft, I'm thinking that I need to not re-pitch this strain, even if results from the first gen a good.

 

[angrybits]

wb-06 has nothing to do with a hefeweizen. It makes a decent semi-Wit if fermented at it's upper range (24C), but it's not a yeast you'd want to use for a hefeweizen.

I suppose my experiences differ from yours. I think it makes a very true-to-style hefeweizen when fermented at 73F ambient, and has the bonus of not smelling like egg farts.

 

[Smellyglove]

I second this. I have a similar thread here regarding this same yeast : Wyeast 3068.
I was over the moon with what was causing the bad taste and smell, looking for infections, water, mash techniques...
In the end, i believe nailed it to the Yeast. I am stressing it and although i quite don't know why, i am pretty sure this is a hard to handle yeast.

Be carefull when using it, make a proper starter, aerate well, do not overpitch or underpitch, do not temperature shock them .
I did not know that bottom harvest would be a problem...all this shows that this is really a finicky yeast....damn...i really love Hefes.

I had a particular success story with a similar strain, i don't know if it is "tougher" than this one. I used the WYEAST 3638 to make a Hefe and it turned out beautifull. After bottling, i made a Dunkel and dropped that DIRECTLY into the YEAST CAKE (i am sure it was overpitch, i had TONS of bottom yeast there). It turned out FANTASTIC.

So, maybe i will be using the 3638 again.
Current status : I used a fresh pack of 3068 yesterday , 24h starter of 1 litre and make a Weizenbock (OG 1.070). It is currently fermenting, if it turns out BAD TASTE again, i am definitly never EVER using this strain again...

Well, I bet many people bottom harvest them and repitch and make it work, but I can't make the latter batches to be right where they should be.

Twice now I have grown an oversized starter from wlp380 and split it into two. One line got just top-cropping, and the second was only bottomcropping. First time I went three gens with both, and the bottom cropped one was a bit off on the second batch, and way off on the third batch. The top cropped line was more consistent to how I want a hefe to taste.

The second time I did it I dumped the bottom cropped one after the second batch.

 

[Smellyglove]

I suppose my experiences differ from yours. I think it makes a very true-to-style hefeweizen when fermented at 73F ambient, and has the bonus of not smelling like egg farts.

Huh, that's interesting. I have one beer I brew all the time and ferment it at 24C, which is a bit above 73F, and I get mostly phenolics like a Wit-bier. If I rehydrate the pack I don't get very much of anything.. Sort of just slight this and slight that.

 

[angrybits]

Huh, that's interesting. I have one beer I brew all the time and ferment it at 24C, which is a bit above 73F, and I get mostly phenolics like a Wit-bier. If I rehydrate the pack I don't get very much of anything.. Sort of just slight this and slight that.

My experience had lead me to believe that mash regimen / grain bill has much to do with the flavors of a good Bavarian style hefe. And either way, it's something I love about this hobby -- so much diversity of outcome. Cheers!

 

[okiedog]

I'll have to try top cropping when I can. Currently, I ferment in glass carboys, which makes that next to impossible unless it's a big mouth. I did have a glass big mouth bubbler, but it broke and I never bought another one.

 

[okiedog]

My experience had lead me to believe that mash regimen / grain bill has much to do with the flavors of a good Bavarian style hefe. And either way, it's something I love about this hobby -- so much diversity of outcome. Cheers!

My grain bill for hefe is 60/40 white wheat/pilsner. My mash schedule is 15 min. @ 113F, 65 min. @ 151F, 10 min. @ 168F. I pitch at about 62F, and let free rise to 68F and hold until complete. The only change I have made is the yeast.

 

[angrybits]

My grain bill for hefe is 60/40 white wheat/pilsner. My mash schedule is 15 min. @ 113F, 65 min. @ 151F, 10 min. @ 168F. I pitch at about 62F, and let free rise to 68F and hold until complete. The only change I have made is the yeast.

Personally, I think that is too low of a fermentation regimen since I like the estery notes of the yeast-forward styles.

Have you not had issues lautering with no protein rest? Wheat can go very glue-y if you aren't careful.

 

[Murphys_Law]

My grain bill for hefe is 60/40 white wheat/pilsner. My mash schedule is 15 min. @ 113F, 65 min. @ 151F, 10 min. @ 168F. I pitch at about 62F, and let free rise to 68F and hold until complete. The only change I have made is the yeast.

That's pretty much my hefe, as well. The last batch I used a very small starter (put the numbers into a yeast calc for a "normal" Ale and then pitched abut 75% of that number) and it was probably the best hefe to date

 

[Smellyglove]

Personally, I think that is too low of a fermentation regimen since I like the estery notes of the yeast-forward styles.

Have you not had issues lautering with no protein rest? Wheat can go very glue-y if you aren't careful.

It's more that unmalted wheat can go glue-y because of the beta glucans. Malted wheat already as this "fixed" by malting.

 

[okiedog]

Personally, I think that is too low of a fermentation regimen since I like the estery notes of the yeast-forward styles.

Have you not had issues lautering with no protein rest? Wheat can go very glue-y if you aren't careful.

I have not noticed any lautering problems. I batch sparge - no false bottom. My hefes have always turned out well until the last 2 batches. I used Gambrinus wheat malt which has 12% protein.

 

[okiedog]

Personally, I think that is too low of a fermentation regimen since I like the estery notes of the yeast-forward styles.

Have you not had issues lautering with no protein rest? Wheat can go very glue-y if you aren't careful.

What is your hefe fermentation regimen? Perhaps I'll try that.

 

[angrybits]

What is your hefe fermentation regimen? Perhaps I'll try that.

72F ambient and let it rise as high as it wants to go

 

[okiedog]

72F ambient and let it rise as high as it wants to go

I like the higher yeast profile for hefes too, but have been cautious about fermenting too high. One of my favorite hefe batches was fermented at 71-72F, though. That was with WLP351. What is your preferred yeast for hefes?