Fullers recipes for ESB/Pride/Chiswick, Imperials, NEIPA - from the horse's mouth

[lowtones84]

Great thread, I'm going to have to come back when I start brewing bitters again.

To those ending up with a more bitter than desired product, I find Target to be a bit aggressive as a bittering hop, but I still like it. It seems to fade a bit as it matures, too. Nothing wrong with a firm bitterness, but perhaps try dialing back the early IBUs from Target in the recipe. Just a thought, haven't tried to clone this.

 

[kevin58]

It may have been posted already but there are some interviews with John Keeling, past head brewer at Fullers where he talks in depth about the recipe. It was part of one of these Can You Brew It episodes...

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1621/

Or this one...

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1633/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

And another one, Imperial Porter :"A 10% reimagining of our London Porter with added Invert Sugar, Treacle and Glucose" But are the new lords and masters a bit less comfortable with full disclosure of recipes?

Scale that down directly from 260hl to 20l and you get :
5.10 kg (64.8%) UK pale malt (Bairds)
910 g (11.6%) glucose
874 g (11.1%) UK crystal - light (60L-ish?)
619 g (7.9%) brown
182 g (2.3%) treacle (see discussions elsewhere for how it's similar to but not the same as molasses)
109 g (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
73 g (0.9%) Invert sugar #1 (Lyle's golden syrup will do or make your own)

However they will be getting much better efficiency than a typical homebrew setup. If we assume 65% brewhouse efficiency and a yeast such as Imperial A09 Pub (or Fullers yeast harvested from bottles of 1845 or a cask) managing 67.5% attenuation then we need to multiply by a fudge factor to end up with a grain bill that looks like this for OG 1.101 and 10.0% ABV (imperial is for 5 US gallons, metric for 20 litres) :

6820g 14lb 4oz (64.8%) UK pale malt
1217g 2lb 9oz (11.6%) glucose
1168g 2lb 7oz (11.1%) UK crystal 60L
828g 1lb 12oz (7.9%) brown malt
243g 8.1oz (2.3%) Lyle's treacle
146g 4.9oz (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
97g 3.3oz (0.9%) Invert sugar #1/Lyle's golden syrup

Tweak the numbers to match your equipment. Yeast nutrient is probably a good idea.

Personally I'm more interested in the regular London Porter at 5.4%. The website confirms the ingredients as pale, crystal, brown, chocolate, and Henry has revealed later in that thread that the proportions are almost the same "78% - London Porter 74% pale ale to try and max OG, 13.5-14% Crystal and 9-10% Brown malt, 1.5% Chocolate malt for both." Which at 70% efficiency and 71% attenuation looks like 1.056 OG, 1.016 FG and 5.4% ABV of :

4500g 9lb 6oz (74.5%) UK pale malt
850g 1lb 12oz (14.1%) UK crystal 60L
600g 1lb 4oz (9.9%) brown malt
90g 3oz (1.5%) UK chocolate malt

The website says the normal porter is 37IBU of 100% Fuggles, which would be 69g (2oz) of 4.5% Fuggles at 60 minutes. But don't get too hung up on that - use Willamette, WGV, Savinjski, anything similar. It's possible they're adding the equivalent of 15g (0.5oz)or so as a late copper addition, I'd probably do that.

It's not clear what the hopping is on the imperial porter, I'd assume it's Fuggles again but maybe a bit more, like 100g (3oz) equivalent?

 

[duelerx]

And another one, Imperial Porter :"A 10% reimagining of our London Porter with added Invert Sugar, Treacle and Glucose" But are the new lords and masters a bit less comfortable with full disclosure of recipes?

Scale that down directly from 260hl to 20l and you get :
5.10 kg (64.8%) UK pale malt (Bairds)
910 g (11.6%) glucose
874 g (11.1%) UK crystal - light (60L-ish?)
619 g (7.9%) brown
182 g (2.3%) treacle (see discussions elsewhere for how it's similar to but not the same as molasses)
109 g (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
73 g (0.9%) Invert sugar #1 (Lyle's golden syrup will do or make your own)

However they will be getting much better efficiency than a typical homebrew setup. If we assume 65% brewhouse efficiency and a yeast such as Imperial A09 Pub (or Fullers yeast harvested from bottles of 1845 or a cask) managing 67.5% attenuation then we need to multiply by a fudge factor to end up with a grain bill that looks like this for OG 1.101 and 10.0% ABV (imperial is for 5 US gallons, metric for 20 litres) :

6820g 14lb 4oz (64.8%) UK pale malt
1217g 2lb 9oz (11.6%) glucose
1168g 2lb 7oz (11.1%) UK crystal 60L
828g 1lb 12oz (7.9%) brown malt
243g 8.1oz (2.3%) Lyle's treacle
146g 4.9oz (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
97g 3.3oz (0.9%) Invert sugar #1/Lyle's golden syrup

Tweak the numbers to match your equipment. Yeast nutrient is probably a good idea.

Personally I'm more interested in the regular London Porter at 5.4%. The website confirms the ingredients as pale, crystal, brown, chocolate, and Henry has revealed later in that thread that the proportions are almost the same "78% - London Porter 74% pale ale to try and max OG, 13.5-14% Crystal and 9-10% Brown malt, 1.5% Chocolate malt for both." Which at 70% efficiency and 71% attenuation looks like 1.056 OG, 1.016 FG and 5.4% ABV of :

4500g 9lb 6oz (74.5%) UK pale malt
850g 1lb 12oz (14.1%) UK crystal 60L
600g 1lb 4oz (9.9%) brown malt
90g 3oz (1.5%) UK chocolate malt

The website says the normal porter is 37IBU of 100% Fuggles, which would be 69g (2oz) of 4.5% Fuggles at 60 minutes. But don't get too hung up on that - use Willamette, WGV, Savinjski, anything similar. It's possible they're adding the equivalent of 15g (0.5oz)or so as a late copper addition, I'd probably do that.

It's not clear what the hopping is on the imperial porter, I'd assume it's Fuggles again but maybe a bit more, like 100g (3oz) equivalent?

View attachment 643668

Thanks for this!

What SRM do you get with the regular London Porter?, with T.F. Chocolate malt on Beersmith i get like 26.3 SRM, but looking at the pictures of Fuller's it looks darker.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

About that and it looks vaguely right, although I've not had any for a while. That kind of beer is hard to photo well, it can often come across darker than it is.

In any case, it's a waste of time getting too hung up on the colour of British beer - such is the widespread use of colourings such as caramel, the colour doesn't tell you much about the ingredients.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Another little snippet - a beer festival programme from 1990, which lists the OG of the beers but not their ABV. Another world!

Chiswick is listed as 1.035, Pride at 1.041, ESB at 1.056. There's also OGs for a whole host of other old-school British beers - probably half of those breweries were taken over in the following 15 years.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Henry has moved to be head brewer at Dark Star, the ...more hop-forward... brewery that Fuller's bought a few years ago so has been rummaging through their records :
https://twitter.com/Darkstar_Henry/status/1179393844145725441

Dark Star Hophead is something of a modern classic in the UK. Normally it's made with Cascade and Amarillo (although the brewsheet indicates bittering with Warrior), they made an Azacca version yesterday. Note the two bricks each of S-04, US-05 and Notty in 5588 litres, Dark Star have always used blends of dry yeast. AMS is the standard acid blend used in the UK. DWB is Murphy's Dry Water Burtonisation salts :

https://twitter.com/Darkstar_Henry/status/1207216923194339328

Finally a 1989 recipe for Gale's HSB (and is that Prize Old Ale I see at the top?). Then it was pale, black, torrified wheat and sugar, Henry says now it's pale, 1.2% crystal and chocolate :
https://twitter.com/Darkstar_Henry/status/1190326410080083968

 

[ESBrewer]

Now the yeast thing is getting interesting. I cultured the yeast on plates from a bottle of Past Masters 1981 version and the liquid cultures look a bit different than those from a bottle of their export IPA. The IPA yeast always producesa white, quite even layer of foam but 1981 has more cauliflowers with more brown notes using similar starter wort. Also the estery, fruity smell appears more(=highly) intense. Same thing starting from two individual colonies but the 1981 is just one individual bottle so it might have mutated, I may have messed up with something or it could even be another strain.. The flocculation seems different, too. Both drop quickly, but 1981 remained fluffy longer whereas Ipa bottling yeast forms the dense sediment quicker. Must see how it works in a brew tomorrow.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hmm - that's interesting, wasn't aware of them using a special yeast for that, certainly for the 1880s one they were insistent about not using any weird yeasts that might muck things up for the normal brews.

 

[Divenglide]

And another one, Imperial Porter :"A 10% reimagining of our London Porter with added Invert Sugar, Treacle and Glucose" But are the new lords and masters a bit less comfortable with full disclosure of recipes?

Scale that down directly from 260hl to 20l and you get :
5.10 kg (64.8%) UK pale malt (Bairds)
910 g (11.6%) glucose
874 g (11.1%) UK crystal - light (60L-ish?)
619 g (7.9%) brown
182 g (2.3%) treacle (see discussions elsewhere for how it's similar to but not the same as molasses)
109 g (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
73 g (0.9%) Invert sugar #1 (Lyle's golden syrup will do or make your own)

However they will be getting much better efficiency than a typical homebrew setup. If we assume 65% brewhouse efficiency and a yeast such as Imperial A09 Pub (or Fullers yeast harvested from bottles of 1845 or a cask) managing 67.5% attenuation then we need to multiply by a fudge factor to end up with a grain bill that looks like this for OG 1.101 and 10.0% ABV (imperial is for 5 US gallons, metric for 20 litres) :

6820g 14lb 4oz (64.8%) UK pale malt
1217g 2lb 9oz (11.6%) glucose
1168g 2lb 7oz (11.1%) UK crystal 60L
828g 1lb 12oz (7.9%) brown malt
243g 8.1oz (2.3%) Lyle's treacle
146g 4.9oz (1.4%) UK chocolate malt
97g 3.3oz (0.9%) Invert sugar #1/Lyle's golden syrup

Tweak the numbers to match your equipment. Yeast nutrient is probably a good idea.

Personally I'm more interested in the regular London Porter at 5.4%. The website confirms the ingredients as pale, crystal, brown, chocolate, and Henry has revealed later in that thread that the proportions are almost the same "78% - London Porter 74% pale ale to try and max OG, 13.5-14% Crystal and 9-10% Brown malt, 1.5% Chocolate malt for both." Which at 70% efficiency and 71% attenuation looks like 1.056 OG, 1.016 FG and 5.4% ABV of :

4500g 9lb 6oz (74.5%) UK pale malt
850g 1lb 12oz (14.1%) UK crystal 60L
600g 1lb 4oz (9.9%) brown malt
90g 3oz (1.5%) UK chocolate malt

The website says the normal porter is 37IBU of 100% Fuggles, which would be 69g (2oz) of 4.5% Fuggles at 60 minutes. But don't get too hung up on that - use Willamette, WGV, Savinjski, anything similar. It's possible they're adding the equivalent of 15g (0.5oz)or so as a late copper addition, I'd probably do that.

It's not clear what the hopping is on the imperial porter, I'd assume it's Fuggles again but maybe a bit more, like 100g (3oz) equivalent?

View attachment 643668

Anyone else try this recipe for the standard London Porter? I have been trying to clone London Porter for ages and I don’t seem to be getting close. I gave this ago and for one thing the colour is off (no biggy) but it’s not as full in the mouth and lacks the caramel sweetness of London Porter. It might be better after a few weeks as 37 IBU is probably a lot for this beer when fresh.

 

[Hanglow]

I brewed LP before using Graham Wheelers recipe iirc, it was a very good beer. It does take a couple of months to smooth out due to the brown malt.this recipe is on JBK and is quite similar to the one in the posts above, except it uses dark crystal which would make all the difference. . I don't think I ever did a side by side with the real thing though.



Pale Malt 5 EBC 76%
Brown Malt 150 EBC 12%
Crystal Malt, Dark 300 EBC 10%
Chocolate Malt 1050 EBC 2%

Fuggle Whole 35EBU all 90mins

Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.014
Colour: 139 EBC

Fullers yeast

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wonder if, although the Imperial uses "more" sugars, there may not be some eg invert #3 or even treacle going in the standard porter?

 

[bierhaus15]

Anyone else try this recipe for the standard London Porter?

I brewed a 12 gal split batch of the same recipe a few months ago and it turned out great, closest I've come to the real thing. Although much of the 'enchanced' caramel sweetness of the bottled product is oxidation. I'd say the same is true of the ESB and Pride, on cask that caramel note is much less present, but give it 3-6 months in a bottle and trip across the ocean, and that caramel really pops.

That said, even with all the brown malt, the beer was extremely smooth and drinkable within two weeks of kegging. I would recommend dialing in your water chem and yeast pitching, as too soft of a water profile makes the brown malt acrid and a solid fermentation is needed to keep the beer from being too sweet.

 

[Divenglide]

I brewed a 12 gal split batch of the same recipe a few months ago and it turned out great, closest I've come to the real thing. Although much of the 'enchanced' caramel sweetness of the bottled product is oxidation. I'd say the same is true of the ESB and Pride, on cask that caramel note is much less present, but give it 3-6 months in a bottle and trip across the ocean, and that caramel really pops.

That said, even with all the brown malt, the beer was extremely smooth and drinkable within two weeks of kegging. I would recommend dialing in your water chem and yeast pitching, as too soft of a water profile makes the brown malt acrid and a solid fermentation is needed to keep the beer from being too sweet.

I’m a Brit living in the UK so the bottles I have are as fresh as they can be. That caramel sweetness is still there! I don’t normally like my beers sweet but London Porter is my exception!

 

[bierhaus15]

Yes, I agree. 12-14% of caramel malt does make a pretty sweet beer. Though I'd say the type of caramel flavor most American's experience in imported Fullers is an oxidized-exaggerated caramel flavor. One of my locals had 3 month old ESB on tap recently and the flavor was straight up candy corn (terrible tasting caramel candies), rather than that lovely clean-sweet caramel flavor when it is fresh in the UK.

 

[Hanglow]

I'd definitely try changing the light crystal to dark. It's pretty essential for that beer

 

[kirkcaldybrewer]

Hi All,

Planning my first attempt at an ESB/LP double batch. My (crude) approximation of a partigyle will involve brewing a large batch of ESB, splitting in two and diluting one to make the LP. (I am aware there are compromises with this, but I'm going to try it).

Anywhoo...I was planning to follow ESBrewers recipe here:

HOP SCHEDULE (all hops were whole cones inside hop bags):
60 min Target so that Beersmith estimates 26.2 IBUs
2.5 min Northdown BS estimate 4.1 IBUs (=almost 3x the amount of target)
2.5 min EKG BS estimate 1.1 IBUs
2.5 min Challenger BS estimate 4.4 IBUs (=same amount as northdown)

When I plug the numbers into brewersfriend, though I am coming up with fairly massive, NEIPA-size, hopping levels: 41g Target at 60m, then ~120g of Challenger, northdown, EKG at 2mins.
(In US units: 1.45oz target at 60m. then 4.2oz challenger, northdown, EKG at 2mins).

Is this really correct!? Or am I messing up my IBU calcs?

Thanks!

 

[kirkcaldybrewer]

Hi All,

Planning my first attempt at an ESB/LP double batch. My (crude) approximation of a partigyle will involve brewing a large batch of ESB, splitting in two and diluting one to make the LP. (I am aware there are compromises with this, but I'm going to try it).

Anywhoo...I was planning to follow ESBrewers recipe here:



When I plug the numbers into brewersfriend, though I am coming up with fairly massive, NEIPA-size, hopping levels: 41g Target at 60m, then ~120g of Challenger, northdown, EKG at 2mins.
(In US units: 1.45oz target at 60m. then 4.2oz challenger, northdown, EKG at 2mins).

Is this really correct!? Or am I messing up my IBU calcs?

Thanks!

I forgot an important detail that my numbers were for a double (42L) batch. Anyway, I went ahead and brewed. I figured that the IBU calculations are probably not capturing continued bittering during the chill, so I backed off a little but still put 100g in the last two minutes (same proportions as planned).

I'll report back how it tastes in a few weeks!

 

[bwible]

Great thread!!

I also recall reading that Fuller’s “dumps a bucket of yeast into every brew, whether it contributes anything or it’s just their way of getting rid of excess.” Would adding some Servomyces approximate this?

Where are you guys using isinglass - in your secondary prior to bottling or kegging, or would you put it in the keg if kegging?

To complete the experience, I recall an article where a corny keg can be used for real ale with gravity dispense by switching the in and out dip tubes, laying on its side:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/using-a-cornelius-keg-for-cask-ale
It’s difficult to find or use an actual cask for homebrew purposes, even a pin is too large to consume quickly enough in a home setting. (Yes I know about cask breathers.) So we tend to use corny kegs. In my case I own 3 gallon cornys. I also do not prime in my corny, I do shoot CO2. I vent the keg for use with the handpump and reseal/purge with CO2 when done dispensing.

I considered trying to adapt/use 5L minikegs with my handpump. Problems are that most of the 5L minikegs only have one opening, no faucet I know of that would be suitable for gravity dispense and no way to connect to my handpump and allow it to draw and replace with air. Only one opening with a small bung that only has one small knock out piece in the center opening. There are some minikegs that have an opening and a pull out plastic faucet. I don’t have any of those and I’m not sure if or how well one of those might work. I’d assume the pull out faucet might work as an air vent but would probably lose CO2 quickly and there is still no suitable faucet with the right type of draw.

But the 5L minikeg seems like a decent sized container with great potential for home use with real ale if some company would adapt the 5L minikeg for use with real ale and set it up with the proper openings and accessories.

I did find this:

 

[kirkcaldybrewer]

I forgot an important detail that my numbers were for a double (42L) batch. Anyway, I went ahead and brewed. I figured that the IBU calculations are probably not capturing continued bittering during the chill, so I backed off a little but still put 100g in the last two minutes (same proportions as planned).

I'll report back how it tastes in a few weeks!

So, I can update that my beer actually did not taste hoppy enough! I did a taste test with a fullers and was surprised how hoppy it was. Otherwise, was a very nice brew!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

@DromJohn has had an email giving more details on 2009 Vintage Ale - the Vintage Ales are essentially Golden Pride but they play around with different hops each year. Encouraging that they respond to emails like that.

Thank you for your email regarding the 2009 VA. A couple of points that may hopefully help.

1. I am not sure what 60L ( Muntons) is? We used 96.5% pale ale malt and 3.5% crystal and no sugar but you may need it to get the gravity up.
2. Hops were all Goldings
3. We would have fermented for 5-7 days then moved to warm ( 6-10C) maturation for 7-8 weeks then cold store ( -1.5C) for 1 week prior to filtering and bottling. We add yeast prior to bottling, target level is 1mill cells/ml
4. Below is the target specs for the beer;

OG – 1086.8
PG - 1019.5
Alc - 8.5%
Col – 37 ebc
BU - 40

Hope this helps,

All the best,

Guy Stewart
Brewing manager

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Although the original recipe used Simpsons, today they've tweeted a delivery of pale malt from Muntons intended for Pride. I don't know whether that reflects a permanent change or just a conscious effort to not be dependent on a single supplier :

 

[couchsending]

@DromJohn has had an email giving more details on 2009 Vintage Ale - the Vintage Ales are essentially Golden Pride but they play around with different hops each year. Encouraging that they respond to emails like that.

The “warm maturation” part of this statement intrigues me. More and more this method of maturation around 50f seems interesting to me. I’ve heard both YDB and the guys from De Ranke talk about it with their beers. I’ve heard Halfway Crooks brewers talk about it with their “Belgian blonde” and now this little tidbit. Clearly this is a much different beer than the Belgian beers I’m referring to but what is the reasoning for this temp instead of something colder?

@bierhaus15 any insight?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

what is the reasoning for this temp instead of something colder?

VA is a bit of a funny beer in some ways, but maturing at cellar temperature is just doing things the "traditional" way. Remember that there was no such thing as refrigeration for over half the history of the Griffin Brewery, other than blocks of ice. So the question to ask, is why do things at colder temperatures when you could do things the normal way, using cellars that you've already been using for centuries?

But certainly one element is that it's warm enough to allow the malt flavours to knit together properly, without being so warm that the yeast clean up all the esters etc. Too cold for too long and you start stripping flavour.

 

[bierhaus15]

Well there has been a trend of cooler maturation in some Belgian breweries to prevent hydrolysis of esters and loss of aromatics. Many Belgian brewers will flash pasteurize before bottling and then bottle condition with a yeast that does not degrade the esters, ect.

Generally, warmer temps are favored for reasons of diacetyl, acetylaldehyde, H2S, ect, removal. So not really sure why Fullers would do it cooler, besides the reason suggested above.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well there has been a trend of cooler maturation in some Belgian breweries to prevent hydrolysis of esters and loss of aromatics. Many Belgian brewers will flash pasteurize before bottling and then bottle condition with a yeast that does not degrade the esters, ect.

But this isn't Belgium, it's England - where the norm is cask conditioning. Potentially several weeks in a pub cellar at cellar temperatures - and it's only natural for Fuller's to try and replicate that Englishness in their flagship beer even if it's bottled.

 

[bierhaus15]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, but the Belgian stuff was per the original comment about DeRanke ect. I meant to imply that I don't know why Fullers would condition cold, other than what you said... that's how they do things.

 

[tracer bullet]

Thanks for the thread, by the way, I'm fermenting an ESB right now. It's close to the recipe in this thread, I only wish I'd seen it sooner and I'd have probably simply duplicated the one here.

Would love to see something similar for Samuel Smith's someday! Thinking a nut brown will be next homebrew. But - that's a different topic.

As for this one though, thanks again.

 

[kevin58]

Although the original recipe used Simpsons, today they've tweeted a delivery of pale malt from Muntons intended for Pride. I don't know whether that reflects a permanent change or just a conscious effort to not be dependent on a single supplier :

I've heard John Keeling say they are not committed to any single maltster or supplier.

 

[patto1ro]

VA is a bit of a funny beer in some ways, but maturing at cellar temperature is just doing things the "traditional" way. Remember that there was no such thing as refrigeration for over half the history of the Griffin Brewery, other than blocks of ice. So the question to ask, is why do things at colder temperatures when you could do things the normal way, using cellars that you've already been using for centuries?

But certainly one element is that it's warm enough to allow the malt flavours to knit together properly, without being so warm that the yeast clean up all the esters etc. Too cold for too long and you start stripping flavour.

Fullers were perfectly able to control the fermentation temperature through the use of attemperators. These were a network of metal pipes inside the fermenter. By running cold water through them they could cool the fermenting wort. They'd been around since the late 18th century.

You can see clearly how the temperature was controlled in the other page of the Fullers records. The one recording Temperature and the other the SG. You can see how London Pride is pitched at 17.7º C and finishes at 15.9º C in the photo below.