Fresh grain flavour

[Schlenkerla]

Grain before the mash smells very different from grain IN the mash. I think you lodo guys are barking up the wrong tree here.

Pot calls kettle black.... how do you know that?

Your grain selection isn't going to do a thing for flavor if there's a poor mashing process. What MrPowers outlined above is correct. It's not complicated. No fancy or special equipment is required. Just a little focus on some minor process tweaks.

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

 

[TheMadKing]

Pot calls kettle black.... how do you know that?

Your grain selection isn't going to do a thing for flavor if there's a poor mashing process. What MrPowers outlined above is correct. It's not complicated. No fancy or special equipment is required. Just a little focus minor process tweaks

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

I said "I Think" as in "its my opinion". If you're going to attack someone for offering an opinion on a public forum you better be standing on pure unadulterated facts.

If your grain selection does not alter your flavor with poor mashing process then you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a stout and a pilsner made by a brewer who doesn't mash "properly". That's an absurd suggestion.

The reason why I have that opinion is: The OP said that he was looking for the flavor of grain BEFORE the mash. Now most of the time people looking for the lodo "it" are describing the flavor of fresh wort, which is grain IN the mash. Those are different flavors IMO. I could be wrong, and thats fine. You are not the adjudicator of truth here, OP is.

It is a fact that red wheat has a stronger "wheat" flavor than white wheat.
It is also a fact that adding wheat to a beer will impart a different flavor than a beer without wheat in it, regardless of the mashing process.
I offered a suggestion to the OP based on my interpretation of his original question, which was different from everyone who latched on to the phrase "distinct grain flavor", and then ignored the rest of his description.

You can't prove me wrong, and you can't prove yourself right and the reverse is true as well. Just let OP read the opinions and make his own decision without attacking anyone. Now go bug off and make beer your own way.

 

[Vale71]

It's foolish to think the magic bullet is a red grain.

And it's foolish to think that tinkering with the mash according to a bunch of lies will make your beer better but to each their own, right? After all if the power of self-suggestion works so well for the LODO crowd why shouldn't it work as well or even better for anybody else?

 

[JohnSand]

We all want to make great beer, let's keep the discussion civil.

 

[MrPowers]

We all want to make great beer, let's keep the discussion civil.

I agree. We also all have different thresholds of effort that we are willing to put in to make that happen. There’s nothing wrong with that.

 

[cmac62]

I haven't tried it, but the first thing that came to my mind is a no boil beer. Mash, chill, pitch, that should get you something different anyway.

 

[Bilsch]

I haven't tried it, but the first thing that came to my mind is a no boil beer. Mash, chill, pitch, that should get you something different anyway.

Yea, an infection.

 

[beersk]

Locking in that fresh grain flavour is exactly the intention of hot side low oxygen processes. Although I personally didn't care one way or the other for the flavour it brought to the beer from my own LoDo endeavours, I can say it definitely does change the flavour and helps with the 'fresh grain' profile. Anyone who really likes fresh German lagers will appreciate the flavours locked in by low oxygen processes.

For what it's worth, I've never had a German lager (tap, can, bottle) where I've tasted specifically fresh grain. I get more of an almost malted character, kind of like that flavor I get in malted milk balls or malts from DQ. A similar character to that. To me, that isn't fresh grain, more just straight up MALT. I'm not sure that's what the OP is after. And I feel many people who are interested in low O2 brewing thinking that they're going to get that in their beers. It's a little different than that in my experience over the last 4 years with low O2 brewing. Sure, it makes a difference, but will you like that difference? That's the real question.

 

[Jayjay1976]

This is what I was afraid of . why can't there just be a malt that gives me this flavour?

There is, it's called Munich light, try brewing a smash recipe with some Hallertauer to get a good idea of what it offers as a base malt. I'd recommend 1.050-1.060 as a good target OG.

 

[Ksub123]

Hmm, classic brewing discussion.
"Do this, it works 100% of the time."
"I tried that, it doesn't make a difference."

I guess its all a matter of taste. Ill try the easy changes for the low oxygen method. It seems like it will be beneficial regardless. But I really think there is another piece to this puzzle.

 

[Bilsch]

The OP asked a good question and most people here are offering constructive opinions on how to get what he is looking for. You might not agree but calling other peoples methods lies etc. isn't helpful at all.

 

[Bilsch]

Hmm, classic brewing discussion.
"Do this, it works 100% of the time."
"I tried that, it doesn't make a difference."

I guess its all a matter of taste. Ill try the easy changes for the low oxygen method. It seems like it will be beneficial regardless. But I really think there is another piece to this puzzle.

As was mentioned earlier, 90% of the Low Oxygen method is just sound brewing practice so I think you can't go wrong incorporating some of it even if you don't go full hot side in the beginning.
Also don't forget some people are blind to flavors that others detect plainly. You will often hear, "I tried that, it doesn't make a difference." but you must take into account, that particular taster may never have experienced what you are searching for in the same way.

 

[Ksub123]

Also don't forget some people are blind to flavors that others detect plainly.

Good point. I brew with a friend, and when doing tastings for each of our new beers I will say things like, "upfront theres honey and maltballs,... and some light herbal notes.... and in the finish... some dry bready malt?"
My friend: "its good. It tastes like German beer."

 

[Gnomebrewer]

FWIW (which is about zero) I consider pils malt to be 'grainy' and darker base grains (ale malt, vienna, munich) to be progressively more 'malty'. I find wheat to be 'bready' (no surprise there). It's going to be hard to help the OP when everyone has a different idea of 'fresh grain flavour'!

I've never had a German lager (tap, can, bottle) where I've tasted specifically fresh grain. I get more of an almost malted character, kind of like that flavor I get in malted milk balls or malts from DQ.

As above, I do taste fresh grain flavour with pils and helles, but definitely more malt character in darker lagers. Only fresh off tap though - I've never had a bottle with the same character. Again, it's hard though when we all describe flavours differently.

 

[beersk]

Good point. I brew with a friend, and when doing tastings for each of our new beers I will say things like, "upfront theres honey and maltballs,... and some light herbal notes.... and in the finish... some dry bready malt?"
My friend: "its good. It tastes like German beer."

Yes, and some people like that maltballs-like flavor, I am one of them. My dad is not. And that isn't fresh grain to me. That's MALT. Difference there. And, in my 4 years of low o2 brewing, as well as a friend of mine's low o2 brewing, have never gotten that flavor in my beer. Not once. I don't know if Bilsch is saying that I am the one who called them lies. No, man, I've been doing this low o2 stuff as long as you have. Maybe longer. Depends how quick you were to adapt after that goofy PDF first came out. But this isn't a pissing match, what I'm saying is, maybe you're doing something I'm not (probably are, because you've probably got a complicated sauergut reaktor and all that jazz). I get a fresher tasting beer with low o2, that is one thing that is for sure. The European lager flavor? Nope. But like I said, that isn't a fresh grain flavor, that's a very malt-like flavor that is more intense than regular brewing practices.

 

[beersk]

FWIW (which is about zero) I consider pils malt to be 'grainy' and darker base grains (ale malt, vienna, munich) to be progressively more 'malty'. I find wheat to be 'bready' (no surprise there). It's going to be hard to help the OP when everyone has a different idea of 'fresh grain flavour'!



As above, I do taste fresh grain flavour with pils and helles, but definitely more malt character in darker lagers. Only fresh off tap though - I've never had a bottle with the same character. Again, it's hard though when we all describe flavours differently.

Got a specific example? My absolute favorite beer in the world is Weihenstephaner Premium. World's best helles right there. Fresh grain flavor? NOPE. Intense malt flavor? YEP! Such a good beer. Have had it fresh on tap and fresh and old from the bottle. We don't get cans of it around here (why? I have no clue, I'm quite sure it's available in cans overseas).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I guess its all a matter of taste.

It sure is. From my own foray into LoDo brewing years ago, I found a definite difference in the beers. They tasted more like fresh German lagers. The problem is that I don't really like (or dislike) fresh German lagers - I prefer British and Belgian ales with a lot of yeast character, so the hotside effort wasn't worth it for my palate (not that it's a lot of work and I do still use the methods occasionally when I want a German style lager). Coldside though, spunding/closed transfers/liquid purging kegs etc. has taken my beers to what I consider the 'next level'. A regular drinking mate though, who started brewing at the same time as me, prefers beers fermented in buckets for a couple of weeks, transferred to open kegs and force carbonated. The same beer with the two methods, he prefers the bucket/open transfer version. That's just a difference of tastes. It doesn't mean one is better than the other.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Got a specific example? My absolute favorite beer in the world is Weihenstephaner Premium. World's best helles right there. Fresh grain flavor? NOPE. Intense malt flavor? YEP! Such a good beer. Have had it fresh on tap and fresh and old from the bottle. We don't get cans of it around here (why? I have no clue, I'm quite sure it's available in cans overseas).

This is a pointless argument, because we obviously have different ideas about 'fresh grain' flavour. And there's no need to shout.

 

[bracconiere]

i love the fact we can have fun, and get in a fight over the difference between malty/grainy/herbal/etc...lol

i just boxed up 12lb's of what i believe to be homemade munich malt....i'd descride it as malty, not grainy at all....more robust and mellow.....

(mf'r it's malty, no it's grainy....most people just like to burn out their taste buds with 2lb's of hops in a 5 gallon batch! )

 

[Yooper]

Good point. I brew with a friend, and when doing tastings for each of our new beers I will say things like, "upfront theres honey and maltballs,... and some light herbal notes.... and in the finish... some dry bready malt?"
My friend: "its good. It tastes like German beer."

Good heavens, I need to learn to read better. I thought you said "upfront there's honey and meatballs", and yet you seemed to like it................

I am more of an ale person, especially highly hopped ales, so I don't know if I can really think of a beer that I've thought of as "fresh grain" in flavor and aroma, although I've certainly had tons of beers that scream MALT (especially in Germany last year).

I don't love wheat beers and sometimes pick up a tart note in wheat beers where wheat is 45% or more of the grainbill- but I think maybe one of the others who mentioned adding some wheat may really up that grainy note.

 

[day_trippr]

That's weird - I also read "meatballs" the first time through, thought "Wait - what?!", and read it again.
I think I've been conditioned to expect the weird around here

Cheers!

 

[Ksub123]

Good point gnomebrewer, its definitely going to come from a light grain, and ive only tasted it on tap as well. The only direction I can give is when you open a bag of base malt.

And I do like a rich maltball like flavour. That description was a tasting for my marzen/fest bier attempt, which was 40% munich. But not anything close to what I'm looking for here.

When writing it I thought it autocorrexted to meatballs too.

 

[Ksub123]

Good heavens, I need to learn to read better. I thought you said "upfront there's honey and meatballs", and yet you seemed to like it................

I am more of an ale person, especially highly hopped ales, so I don't know if I can really think of a beer that I've thought of as "fresh grain" in flavor and aroma, although I've certainly had tons of beers that scream MALT (especially in Germany last year).

I don't love wheat beers and sometimes pick up a tart note in wheat beers where wheat is 45% or more of the grainbill- but I think maybe one of the others who mentioned adding some wheat may really up that grainy note.

I'm pretty sure that sour note you mention in wheat beers is due to yeast selection. I find most German wheat beers don't have it, but most American wheats do.

 

[cmac62]

Yea, an infection.

Not necessarily, mashing at 150+ for 60 mins pretty much pasteurizes the wort, and if the rest of your sanitation is up to snuff there should be a limited risk for infection. There are several threads on HTB concerning no boil beers and they can definitely be done resulting in clean beer.

 

[Ksub123]

That's weird - I also read "meatballs" the first time through, thought "Wait - what?!", and read it again.
I think I've been conditioned to expect the weird around here

Cheers!

You've never had a good meaty beer before? There great on a cold winter night. The secret is 1/2# ground beef in the mash.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't know if Bilsch is saying that I am the one who called them lies.

No sir. I was referring to that quirky yet lovable character, Vale71.

For me though fresh grain flavor is mostly in the nose and with well made fresh German lagers, I can tell what is coming long before the first sip. IMO malty is mostly in the mouth and completely different.

 

[Bilsch]

Good point. I brew with a friend, and when doing tastings for each of our new beers I will say things like, "upfront theres honey and maltballs,... and some light herbal notes.... and in the finish... some dry bready malt?"
My friend: "its good. It tastes like German beer."

Happens to me all the time. I'll score some 2 month old Bitburger and be drinking it with friends and family, going on about clean fresh grain and cracker with just a touch of sweet malt etc.. They will all be looking at me like I was trying to explain particle physics.
Oh well.. some people crave the special delicate flavors of well made Continental beers while others just want to know what the ABV and IBU are.

 

[IslandLizard]

This thread is locked for the time being.
Thread is unlocked again.
Please stay on topic and keep the discourse civil.

Those who don't may enjoy a short vacation away from HBT.

 

[cmac62]

Some folks make particle physics easier that brewing beer. Right!!

 

[MrPowers]

Some folks make particle physics easier that brewing beer. Right!!

It's all about how much effort you want to put in. Some people spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars pursuing excellence in sports, others do the same with instruments, some do the same with beer.

At the end of the day, its a hobby and you can choose how much time and money you want to invest in it. I like the science and the pursuit of "perfection" (which only exists in my head). Therefore, I try to offer the best advice that I can to help others achieve their desired outcome. Then they can make up their own mind and decide if it's worth the effort.