French Toast stout clone.. Fermenting question

[ajm97210]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forums and a fairly new homebrewer. I have been working on a recipe for a clone of a beer I had at Wicked Weed brewing over in North Carolina last spring. I know that when I went on the tour they told me they actually ferment with French toast in the fermenter. I am assuming this is done during secondary? When would be the best time and way to do this?

My UPDATED recipe is as follows, any tips or ideas would be greatly accepted!

Batch Size - 5 gallons

Fermentables:
9.0lbs - Dry Malt Extract - Extra Light
1.0lbs - Brown Sugar
1.0lbs - Lactose

12oz - Victory (US)
6.0oz - Carapils
6.0oz - Roaster Barely (US)
6.0oz - Chocolate (US)

Hops:
2.0oz - Nugget (US) - 10min 14.3%AA

Yeast:
Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast - White Labs WLP028

Extras:
10.0tsp - Vanilla Extract @ 5min Boil
3.0 - Cinnamon Sticks @ 5min Boil
1.0tbs - Nutmeg (Ground) @ 5min Boil

Approx. ABV 8.8%
Approx. IBU 28

 

[crash568]

don't have much to add to this but wanted to say that I loved wicked weed when I was there and the bourbon barrel french toast stout was something I will never forget!

 

[ajm97210]

Exactly it was pretty incredible that's why I'm trying to get an idea when and how to do the fermenting with the French toast. I wanna see if I can get something similar to theirs

 

[mdbrewer1]

What size batch are you shooting for? A lot of those values look pretty high if this is for a 5 gallon batch.

 

[ajm97210]

This was for a 5 gallon batch indeed

 

[mdbrewer1]

You're probably up in the 11-12% ABV range with 13 lbs. of fermentables. I'm not sure if that is what you are shooting for or not.

How hoppy was the one you had? 2 oz. at 60 is going to be really bitter. 2 oz. at 20 is going to really be very strong in flavor.

That's also quite a bit more chocolate and roasted barley than I like, personally.

You have strong contributions from the dark grains, strong contribution for all those hops, and strong contribution from the flavorings. That's too much IMO.

Personal preference, I'd probably cut pretty much everything in half as a general starting point. That would put you at around 6% with a hop presence that would play a little nicer with the flavorings and less roast.

 

[madscientist451]

The only thing that jumps out is adding the vanilla extract to the boil.
If the original was barrel aged, its likely they added vanilla beans like you would add dry hops.
I think the vanilla flavor/aroma is going to get boiled out, even adding it with only 5 mins left.
Do you have a bottle of this? Anything on the bottle to give clues? Like IBU's , ABV, any description of the beer?
I found some notes on Beer advocate that says ABV is 8.4% and that the beer has some maple character. Backsweeten with maple syrup after fermenting or when bottling?

 

[ajm97210]

I don't remember it being too terribly hoppy so I'll cut back on the hops a little bit. As far as the fermentables go I was shooting for that 10% - 12% range. To keep it there would you recommend just cutting back on some of the roasted barely and chocolate but leave the rest?

Unfortunately they are such a small brewery they don't even bottle. I'm not shooting for an exact clone but I remember it having such a nice French toast flavor, very full mouth feel, and strong ABV. I wish I could find the exact information somewhere to help me along with the recipe.
I guess it isn't as much a clone as a recipe inspired by their brew.

Does anyone have an answer to my fermenting question as well yet?

EDIT: The maple syrup would be a really nice addition, during bottling.
I'm glad you were able to find that, I'll back on some more of the fermentables a little thing to see if I can get closer to 9%.

 

[ajm97210]

I seem to have found a site where it says ABV is 8.4% like madscientist suggested and an IBU of about 25.

Here's what I've worked out in terms of an updated recipe:

Fermentables:
9.0lbs - Dry Malt Extract - Extra Light
1.0lbs - Brown Sugar
1.0lbs - Lactose

12oz - Victory (US)
6.0oz - Carapils
6.0oz - Roaster Barely (US)
6.0oz - Chocolate (US)

Hops:
2.0oz - Nugget (US) - 10min 14.3%AA

Yeast:
Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast - White Labs WLP028

Extras:
10.0tsp - Vanilla Extract @ 5min Boil
3.0 - Cinnamon Sticks @ 5min Boil
1.0tbs - Nutmeg (Ground) @ 5min Boil

 

[mdbrewer1]

How did you calculate the IBUs? I put the recipe in Brewer's Friend and came up with 13.

If you move 1 oz. to 60 and 1 oz. to 20, it will give you about 28 IBU. It will be more balanced with some bitterness and less hop flavor to compete with your French toast flavors.

Using the rest of your ingredients, it estimates 7.7% ABV and a SRM of 23, which is a dark amber color. You might want to try to get it a little darker by switching some of the extract to dark or adding a small amount of darker grain like black patent.

I'd echo the suggestion about not putting the vanilla in the boil. I did a vanilla bourbon stout and in addition to adding some beans soaked in bourbon, I also added extra at bottling to taste. Since that seems like a lot of vanilla, I'd suggest going that route. When you're ready to bottle, add small measured amounts to measured amounts of beer until you get the flavor you want. Then take that ratio and calculate how much you'll need to add for the rest of the batch.

I'd be very hesitant to put actual French toast in the process, but maybe I'm being too cautious. I'm not terribly sure on that aspect. Maybe you could toss the French toast in as fermentation is slowing. That would make it tough for any nasties to gain hold. I've also read about people putting French Toast Crunch cereal in the mash, so maybe you could toss some in with your steeping grains.

I'd give the maple syrup priming a shot, but I tried it in my latest porter and it didn't come through at all unfortunately.

 

[castillo556]

Actual french toast?

Fats and proteins from the milk and eggs and chemicals and preservatives from the bread.

No thanks.

 

[crash568]

chemical?? I do not want to get french toast where you are eating it I guess. Overall I would agree that adding that to your fermentation probably isnt the greatest idea as milk and eggs are full of fat which is no bueno for beer.

 

[ajm97210]

Awesome thank's for the suggestions I'll look into using some cinnamon cereal during the steep.

Would you suggest changing the extract type all together to a darker colored one instead of the light?
As far as the using maple syrup for priming does that change the carbonation timing table at all? I know I would need to calculate the exact amount of syrup I needed but that's not a problem.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I did a little more reading and the difference between dark and light is that the company already added the dark grains, but they don't tell you what percentages. It sounds like you are better off using light and then adding your own dark grains so you know for sure what you're getting. You can always add something like midnight wheat to add color but no flavor.

Are you asking if priming with syrup would affect how long it will take to carb? If so, I'm not sure. It seemed about the same but I probably would have used more. It is a little undercarbed for my liking.

 

[ajm97210]

Are you asking if priming with syrup would affect how long it will take to carb? If so, I'm not sure. It seemed about the same but I probably would have used more. It is a little undercarbed for my liking.

Yeah that's what I was wondering. Hmm that's good to know because that definitely sounds like it's worth a try for the flavor. I'll do a little more research to see if anyone has figured out a good ratio for priming with with syrup..

 

[madscientist451]

Northern Brewer's priming calculator has maple syrup as one of the choices:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

 

[mdbrewer1]

That's the calculator I used for maple syrup, but it came out a little undercarbed, at least to me. I've read that different maple syrups have differing levels of sugars, so that might explain it.

 

[ajm97210]

Oh awesome thanks a ton. Working on updating the recipe again and I'll see what you guys think.

@mdbrewer do you remember what kind of syrup you used? Was it one of the popular brands or a real maple syrup?

 

[ajm97210]

Here's what I've worked out with some of the suggestions

Fermentables:
9.0lbs - Dry Malt Extract - Extra Light
1.0lbs - Brown Sugar
1.0lbs - Lactose

12oz - Victory (US)
6.0oz - Carapils
6.0oz - Roaster Barely (US)
6.0oz - Chocolate (US)
6.0oz - Midnight Wheat Malt (US)

Hops:
1.0oz - Nugget (US) - 60min 14.3%AA
1.0oz - Nugget (US) - 20min 14.3%AA

Yeast:
Edinburgh Scottish Ale Yeast - White Labs WLP028

Extras:
3.0 - Cinnamon Sticks @ 5min Boil
1.0tbs - Nutmeg (Ground) @ 5min Boil

Maple Syrup as priming sugar

According the Brewers friend
ABV is 9.1% SRM of 35.61 and IBU of 68.76

 

[mdbrewer1]

I used Grade B maple syrup I got from Amazon. I'll try digging up the link later. It is soooo good on pancakes and such. We much prefer it to the Grade A stuff we used to get from Costco.

The recipe looks pretty good, but is the 68 IBU correct? I'm not able to load up the Brewer's Friend recipe creator page, but when I ran it, I thought I remembered it being closer to the 28 range. Should that have been 28.76? If it is actually 68, I'd cut down on the 60 minute addition until you get down to ~25-30 IBU. Most stouts are in that range or lower.

I'd still try to work vanilla in there as well. I'd try adding extract to taste at bottling time.

 

[ajm97210]

How would I go about adding vanilla at the bottling phase? That kind of confuses me. Mix it in with the priming agent/maple syrup?

And yeah unless I put in the wrong numbers into the Brewers Friend calculator that is what I got.

 

[mdbrewer1]

How would I go about adding vanilla at the bottling phase? That kind of confuses me. Mix it in with the priming agent/maple syrup?

And yeah unless I put in the wrong numbers into the Brewers Friend calculator that is what I got.

Prior to moving it to the bottling bucket, pull samples and add increasing amounts of vanilla until you get it to where you want it. Then, multiply it out to find out how much you need for the entire batch and add it to the bottling bucket along with the priming agent. I boiled my maple syrup in 2c of water for 10 minutes to ensure it mixed well.

Those IBUs just seem high to me. I'd consider knocking down the 60 minute addition until you get it to 30 or below.

 

[ajm97210]

Awesome thanks so much for all the help! I plugged it back into the Brewers Friend App and got 31.44 IBU which should be good. Now I just need to get all the ingredients together!

 

[mdbrewer1]

That sounds more like what I remembered seeing. Best of luck. I can't wait to hear how it turns out!

 

[ajm97210]

Just thought I'd update... I brewed this baby last night and it is going through a VERY active fermentation right now, can't wait to drink it when it's completely done

 

[mdbrewer1]

Just thought I'd update... I brewed this baby last night and it is going through a VERY active fermentation right now, can't wait to drink it when it's completely done

Did you try the hydrometer sample?

What temperature are you fermenting at? White Labs lists a very narrow range for that yeast.

 

[ajm97210]

Yeah I tried the hydrometer sample and it was very very good, great flavor.

I didn't end up going with White Labs, when I went to the local brewing shop they recommend I use a different yeast to make it slightly cheaper. It was still a low attenuating yeast... I can't remember the exact company. I believe it was Danstar? But I couldn't tell you for sure sadly..

But I've got the fermenter in a dark closet of my apartment which we keep relatively cool.

 

[mdbrewer1]

Yeah I tried the hydrometer sample and it was very very good, great flavor.

I didn't end up going with White Labs, when I went to the local brewing shop they recommend I use a different yeast to make it slightly cheaper. It was still a low attenuating yeast... I can't remember the exact company. I believe it was Danstar? But I couldn't tell you for sure sadly..

But I've got the fermenter in a dark closet of my apartment which we keep relatively cool.

That's always encouraging.

Danstar makes a Windsor Ale yeast, so that might be the one. It lists a range of 64-70F. If possible, I'd try to get the ambient temperature to the low 60s in order to accommodate the internal temperature rise during the beginning part of fermentation.

Sounds like you're on a good path forward. I'm excited to hear how it turns out.

 

[punkrawkgeek]

Any updates on this tasty sounding brew??

 

[ajm97210]

I just opened up a bottle last night and it turned out incredibly! The maple syrup priming worked wonderfully. It has a nice body, amazing flavor, and the right amount of hop. Perfect!