Dark Sour Stout Questions & Recommendations

[Nickbtag]

Hello HBT community!

I recently made my first dive into the sour beer brewing world and brewed something similar to an Oud Bruin. It’s been transferred to secondary and I saved some of the yeast post transfer. I pitched a combo of US-05 and 3763 Roeselare from the get go to get more funk and sourness. The recipe is as follows. Only changes, I had some aged lambic hops on hand I got for super cheap and added 3oz at 90 minutes. I also pitched some bottle dregs for some additional complexity.

Oud Bruin
Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin
5 gallons
All Grain
1.060~OG → 1.011~FG → 6.3%ABV 24 IBU 22.9°L SRM
Yeast
2 yeasts
3763 - Roeselare Ale Blend
Wyeast (Ale) 4.23 ounces

US-05 - Safale US-05
Fermentis (Ale) 0.17 ounces

Fermentables
11.12 pounds
Pale Ale
37ppg, 3°L 7.5 pounds
67.4%
Munich (Light)
33ppg, 10°L 1.5 pounds
13.5%
CaraMunich
33ppg, 50°L 1 pound
9.0%
Candi - Amber
31ppg, 80°L 8 ounces
4.5%
Special B
29ppg, 140°L 6 ounces
3.4%
Chocolate
28ppg, 350°L 4 ounces
2.2%

Hops
1.5 ounces
Goldings (Styrian)
5%, Pellet 1.25 ounces

Fuggles
5%, Pellet 0.25 ounces

Miscellaneous
None

Batch/Fly
1 hour, 8.19 gallons
Strike
Target 152°F 3.98 gallons at 163°F
1 hour
Sparge 4.21 gallons at 170°F

Boil
90 minutes

I guess it’s a bit late to ask questions on this batch as it’s sitting with a nice pellicle in secondary but any input is welcome. I did forget to add oak like I was planning, is it too late to add it at this point?

So on to the rest of the questions. My brother in law and his wife love sours and I was hoping to brew up something for their anniversary next year. We were recently discussing our intrigue with the beer Dark Arts by Wicked Weed. None of us have ever had the beer but I would like to brew something similar to it with the addition of figs, cinnamon and cardamom (ingredients my sister in law said she would love to see in a dark sour beer). I was thinking of loosely basing it this recipe from the Mad Fermentationist.

Winter Saison (Funky Dark Saison w/ Black Cardamom)

Recipe Specifics (All-Grain)
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 15.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 50.33
Anticipated OG: 1.078
Anticipated SRM: 32.4
Anticipated IBU: 17.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 62 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
----------------------
77.5% - 39.00 lbs. American Pale Malt
6.0% - 3.00 lbs. Light DME
4.0% - 2.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt
2.5% - 1.25 lbs. Crystal 40L
2.5% - 1.25 lbs. Special B Malt
2.0% - 1.00 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt
1.6% - 0.81 lbs. KilnCoffee Malt
1.6% - 0.80 lbs. Crystal 90L
0.8% - 0.41 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt
0.8% - 0.41 lbs. Carafa Special II
0.8% - 0.41 lbs. Flaked Soft White Wheat

Hops
-----
2.00 oz. Amarillo (Pellet 8.00% AA) 60 min.

Extras
-------
3 g Black Cardamom Seeds 2 Min.
20 oz Dates toasted and deglazed with wort and red wine

Yeast
-----
WYeast 3711 French Saison

Anyone had Dark Arts? How close would this be? Any suggestions or changes you would suggest to get close or comparable? I know the ABV needs to be boosted. I would also be super happy with something close to Tart of Darkness as well.

I was considering reusing the saved yeast from the Oud Bruin? Would this be alright to directly pitch this? Would you suggest also pitching the 3711 or use something different all together?

Sorry for all the questions and long post. Any input, recommendations or direction to go in are greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Nick

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's never too late to add oak.

It's ok to repitch the cake, but you'll probably want to pitch some fresh Sacc with it.

I'm not familiar with the beers you mention. Not really my style.

 

[Nickbtag]

It's never too late to add oak.

It's ok to repitch the cake, but you'll probably want to pitch some fresh Sacc with it.

I'm not familiar with the beers you mention. Not really my style.

Thank you for the tips and help! I’ll likely go ahead and add the oak. Is it a problem breaking the pellicle to add it?

That’s what I was thinking. I’m curious as to how the brett and other microbes will perform repitching them. I was considering using a saison yeast as he used for the dark funky saison but just an idea and open to suggestion.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I’ll likely go ahead and add the oak. Is it a problem breaking the pellicle to add it?

It's fine; sometimes they drop on their own anyway, or never form at all.
If you're worried about excessive oxygen exposure with your fermenter/headspace you could purge with CO2 or add a bit of dissolved sugar to generate CO2.

Saison yeast is definitely fair game. I don't generally like saisons myself (too peppery) but they are quite good with Brett and LAB. I'm brewing a sour this weekend with Sacc Trois (wlp644) and B. lambicus copitch.

 

[Nickbtag]

It's fine; sometimes they drop on their own anyway, or never form at all.
If you're worried about excessive oxygen exposure with your fermenter/headspace you could purge with CO2 or add a bit of dissolved sugar to generate CO2.

Saison yeast is definitely fair game. I don't generally like saisons myself (too peppery) but they are quite good with Brett and LAB. I'm brewing a sour this weekend with Sacc Trois (wlp644) and B. lambicus copitch.

That’s good to know! I’ll go ahead and drop in the oak carefully and then blanket with some CO2.

That sour sounds great! I hope the best for it. I’m going to continue to weigh my options for yeast. I’m not dead set on using the saison yeast. Hopefully I can get some further suggestions on a base recipe that would get close to the aforementioned beers.

 

[Nickbtag]

Ok, so hears the idea for my recipe. The idea is to give something with lots of complexity and higher ABV that will be close Dark Arts. I plan on dual pitching US-05 and second use roeselare and adding possibly some cinnamon and cardamom at flameout. Maybe age on some figs as it sours. Let me know what tweaks to the recipe you guys think.

22 lbs Pale 2-Row - US 70%
1.25 lb Caramunich I (Weyermann) 4%
1 lb Caramel/Crystal 40 - US 3%
1lb Special B 3%
1 lb Dark Brown Sugar - US 3%
1 lb Honey - US 3%
0.75 lb Roasted Barley - US 2%
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal 90 - US 2%
0.75 lb Coffee Malt - US 2%
0.75 lb Chocolate Malt - US 2%
0.25 lb Flaked Wheat - US 1%
0.25 lb Carapils - Dextrine Malt - US 1%
0.25 lb Flaked Oats - US 1%
0.25 lb Carafa Special II (Weyermann) 1%

Thanks!
Nick

 

[Nickbtag]

Any recommendations to the above recipe? Thinking of getting this brewing in the next few weeks. Thanks everyone!

-Nick

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd lose the US-05. Roeselare has a nice belgian Sacc strain. I'd use a fresh culture of the Roe along with the cake assuming it's old.

The 14-line malt bill looks a little crazy, I think it could be consolidated.
I would definitely consider reducing the amount of the roasted malts, perhaps eliminating the roasted barley, coffee, and chocolate altogether, bumping up the carafa a little to compensate. You could always add more roast cold-steeped later if you think it's needed down the road.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I did a sour stout (partial mash, based on Tart of Darkness) with blackberries using Roselare and dregs from about 6 different sours (inc. Jolly Pumpkin, Hanssens, Firestone Walker, Odell). It came out INCREDIBLY sour. Like, so sour that I have to blend it with a commercial chocolate stout to really enjoy it. Strip the enamel from your teeth sour. Incredible flavor, though!

(Part of the issue is that I let it age a bit too long because I was out of the country and a friend was watching the carboy for me. It ended up being in the carboy for ~15 months.)

So my little bit of advice... start tasting monthly or every other month at about 6 months and be ready to bottle at any time.

 

[Nickbtag]

I'd lose the US-05. Roeselare has a nice belgian Sacc strain. I'd use a fresh culture of the Roe along with the cake assuming it's old.

The 14-line malt bill looks a little crazy, I think it could be consolidated.
I would definitely consider reducing the amount of the roasted malts, perhaps eliminating the roasted barley, coffee, and chocolate altogether, bumping up the carafa a little to compensate. You could always add more roast cold-steeped later if you think it's needed down the road.

Thanks for the help! As I was putting it together, it seemed a bit excessive but wasn’t sure what to eliminate or combine. I based a lot of it off of one of the mad fermentationist recipes, thinking the more specialty grain the more depth of flavor there would be. I hadn’t thought about adding more cold steeped grain liquid later. That’s a good idea.

The harvested yeast from the last batch is a few months old. Do you think I would still need to pitch fresh yeast as well?

 

[Nickbtag]

I did a sour stout (partial mash, based on Tart of Darkness) with blackberries using Roselare and dregs from about 6 different sours (inc. Jolly Pumpkin, Hanssens, Firestone Walker, Odell). It came out INCREDIBLY sour. Like, so sour that I have to blend it with a commercial chocolate stout to really enjoy it. Strip the enamel from your teeth sour. Incredible flavor, though!

(Part of the issue is that I let it age a bit too long because I was out of the country and a friend was watching the carboy for me. It ended up being in the carboy for ~15 months.)

So my little bit of advice... start tasting monthly or every other month at about 6 months and be ready to bottle at any time.

That’s great to know. I really enjoy sour beers but I do want the complexity to come through as well. I’ll keep a close eye on it as it ages to make sure it doesn’t overly sour.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I think it was likely the JP dregs that went HAM on the beer. I've heard many accounts that they're aggressive as all hell.

 

[Nickbtag]

I think it was likely the JP dregs that went HAM on the beer. I've heard many accounts that they're aggressive as all hell.

You’re not the first person that has said that. Those must be some strong sour bugs. I know where to go to if things don’t seem to be souring enough. I will keep a close eye on how it progresses and try to update along the way. Should have the recipe nailed down soon and have this underway!

 

[Nickbtag]

Updated recipe. Tried to simplify things and keep more streamlined to not muddy to many flavors at once.

76% 2 Row
7% CaraMunich
5% Flaked Oats
5% Carafa II (might even go carafa special, roast can become acrid with acid)
4% Honey
3% Special B

I think I’m going to stick with Roeselare and dual pitch with Notty to leave some residual sweetness for the sour bugs to work with.

 

[ong]

So my little bit of advice... start tasting monthly or every other month at about 6 months and be ready to bottle at any time.

How will that stop or slow the souring, though, unless you bottle-pasteurize?

 

[ong]

FWIW, I did what I’m calling a “dark sour” on mostly first-gen roselaire plus some assorted other cultures. It aged in a bourbon barrel (after a few clean batches, so the bourbon influence was quite mild) for around 14 months. It’s sour, but not kill-you-in-the-face sour; more funky than sour, really.

Your revised grist looks pretty good to me, if not much like a stout.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How will that stop or slow the souring, though, unless you bottle-pasteurize?

Getting off the cake removes nutrients.

Updated recipe.

Looks great!