food poisoning scare

[theredben]

I don't think it's wise to speak in absolutes about this topic, though I can sympathize with trying to quell the "will my beer make me sick?" threads.

Although that is a good general practice in life, in this case you can talk about absolutes.

I don't make the assumption that everyone who asks this question has completed a successful fermentation. If the fermentation didn't complete, for an number of reasons, the end product could be susceptible to foodborne pathogens, though this would probably be a rare occurrence. Technically speaking, though, it wouldn't actually be beer that made them sick, but infected wort.

The assumption that a beer which did not complete fermentation, and would therefore be susceptible to foodborne pathogens, is false. When we talk about things being "infected", these beer spoilage organisms are completely safe. There are three things that protect beer; first it is boiled, which will reduce any bacterial load to be almost non-detectable. Next the yeast is added. It does not matter which yeast is used, it can be domesticated brewer's yeast, or wild yeast, or even a small group of fermentative bacteria, either way they will increase the ethanol content of the beer which will kill off most of anything that stuck around. Lastly you are creating an anaerobic enviroment which will inhibit the growth of just about everything else. The addition of the hops is also a bonus, but not really relevant concerning foodborne pathogens due to the fact that hops only inhibit Gram-positive groups.

This is why I don't universally tell people theirs beers are safe to drink; though it's extremely rare that fermentations completely fail.

Fermentations do not fail, they just are not always produced by the yeasts we want.

This is an issue that cannot be stressed enough. Beer is safe. This is not the opinion of just a bunch of internet geeks, this is the repeated opinion of health professionals, researchers, and scientists. One of my favorite studies I have come across is this: Mycotoxins in South African traditional beer basically it says that even when the grain is inoculated with myco-toxin (very nasty chemicals produced by fungus) producting fungus before mashing, they were only present in the finished beer in the levels they were inoculated with. This is home-brewed traditional beer in South Africa without the advances of yeast technology we currently have. And here in North America/Europe we would never see any malt containing any significant amount of myco-toxing contaminated malt, which is the only thing I would ever be worried about in beer.

 

[Chefkeith]

The assumption that a beer which did not complete fermentation, and would therefore be susceptible to foodborne pathogens, is false.

If the fermentation truly failed, then yes, it would be quite an inviting place for pathogens to live. (see below)

Fermentations do not fail, they just are not always produced by the yeasts we want.

This is empirically not true. There are many possible causes of a failed fermentation: pitching dead yeast, severely underpitching yeast, fermenting in very cold temperatures, etc... All of which could lead to a foodborne pathogen reproducing in numbers greater than our yeast; possibly creating a dangerous situation.

When we talk about things being "infected", these beer spoilage organisms are completely safe.

When I talk about things being "infected," I'm referring to the presence of undesirable microbes; I make no assumptions about the safety of the product in this scenario. Anecdotally, when saccharomyces cerevisiae is in play, the presence of other pathogens are usually limited to a safe level, but I wouldn't make assumptions about the levels of saccharomyces cerevisiae in a stranger's beer on the forums - he theoretically could have forgotten to pitch his yeast!

I understand that beer is an inhospitable place for bacteria, viruses, and toxins to exist, but it IS possible, as was pointed out in the abstract you linked to (eg. the presence of aflatoxins in two of the commercially brewed South African beers). So, we can't say with absolution that toxins can't exist in beer (which was the assertion from the quote that Revvy shared in an earlier post).

Lastly you are creating an anaerobic enviroment which will inhibit the growth of just about everything else.

An anaerobic environment is only the result of a successful fermentation. Up until that point, the wort should be very well aerated which would be very hospitable to most foodborne pathogens.

The addition of the hops is also a bonus, but not really relevant concerning foodborne pathogens due to the fact that hops only inhibit Gram-positive groups.

The problem with this statement is that you are inferring that all foodborne pathogens are gram-negative. Listeria monocytogenes is gram-positive if I recall correctly. Also, the gram stain test only applies to bacteria; foodborne pathogens may include viruses or other toxins.

In the end, did the OP get sick from his beer? Probably not. Will your homebrew make you sick? Very slim chance, probably next to none. But in order to call it "homebrew" in my book it has to actually ferment. When good fermentation happens, it's really safe. If fermentation doesn't happen, it can be very dangerous.

And no, I'm not fear mongering

 

[theredben]

Chefkieth - It seems you really want to believe that beer is dangerous even when faced with mountains of proof pointing the other direction. That is fine. You definitely cannot believe everything you read on the internet. The only problem I have (and I think Revvy too) is that you are spreading misinformation about the safety of beer on the internet. Posts like yours with no scientific information only serve to cause rumors and myths. Those rumors and myths are very hard to get rid of once they place themselves in the psyche of the readers. If you have any real information at all then I would love to see it but until then it would be better for future readers if you kept your "statements" as "opinions" to let others know difference.

P.S. - I will not bother to pick apart the science you posted for the sake of this thread, but feel free to continue this discussion in PM if you want.

 

[Chefkeith]

Will your homebrew make you sick? Very slim chance, probably next to none.

Chefkieth - It seems you really want to believe that beer is dangerous even when faced with mountains of proof pointing the other direction.

PS. Thanks for getting my name right.