foam, foam foam. I know draft line length, but wait there's more...

[Grippi]

So hello my new best friends. I have been fighting with a keg that just won't pour a decent beer, and am at my wits end. I'm pouring and ESB, from a sixtel sanke keg, with a picnic tap. I have tried 4 foot, 12 foot, and now 6 foot 3/16 line, at PSI's ranging from 2-18 psi, with the only success coming from 2-3 psi, but who wants to lower pressure, and vent the keg every time you want a pint? I've also read this is bad for the beer when done repeatedly over time. Something about losing aroma, and flavor, which, I've noticed the beer getting maltier as I fiddle with, and keep having to bleed co2 from the keg, but that could just be me.

On a side note, I have an Irish red that doesn't care. First try, with a 12 foot draft line and picnic tap and it's perfect every time.

So My question then, could it just be the beer? The only thing I haven't tried and will try tonight is switching couplers all together, and seeing if there's a leak in the coupler, but short of that, have you ever just had a beer that for whatever reason, doesn't want to pour right? I should mention that it was my first beer, and an extract. the extract was older than it should've been, and even better, I forgot to add it until half way through the boil. Live and you learn. lol. So could it just be the beer, or do I likely have a leak somewhere letting air into that setup. The only other thing I can think of is that the Co2 tank hooked up to it was a hand me down from a friend, and still had gas in it, that's probably years old. Didn't think gas went bad, but could that be it? Thanks for any help. I've searched through the threads. and have tried all the recommended things, so figured it was time to get specific and see what anyone might know. Thanks again.

 

[brewshki]

So hello my new best friends. I have been fighting with a keg that just won't pour a decent beer, and am at my wits end. I'm pouring and ESB, from a sixtel sanke keg, with a picnic tap. I have tried 4 foot, 12 foot, and now 6 foot 3/16 line, at PSI's ranging from 2-18 psi, with the only success coming from 2-3 psi, but who wants to lower pressure, and vent the keg every time you want a pint? I've also read this is bad for the beer when done repeatedly over time. Something about losing aroma, and flavor, which, I've noticed the beer getting maltier as I fiddle with, and keep having to bleed co2 from the keg, but that could just be me.

On a side note, I have an Irish red that doesn't care. First try, with a 12 foot draft line and picnic tap and it's perfect every time.

So My question then, could it just be the beer? The only thing I haven't tried and will try tonight is switching couplers all together, and seeing if there's a leak in the coupler, but short of that, have you ever just had a beer that for whatever reason, doesn't want to pour right? I should mention that it was my first beer, and an extract. the extract was older than it should've been, and even better, I forgot to add it until half way through the boil. Live and you learn. lol. So could it just be the beer, or do I likely have a leak somewhere letting air into that setup. The only other thing I can think of is that the Co2 tank hooked up to it was a hand me down from a friend, and still had gas in it, that's probably years old. Didn't think gas went bad, but could that be it? Thanks for any help. I've searched through the threads. and have tried all the recommended things, so figured it was time to get specific and see what anyone might know. Thanks again.

I had the same problem for a long time. I went to my LHBS asking questions and wanting them to provide me a solution, and they told me to just vent the keg down and leave it at 2-3 PSI. I know this isn't the best thing for the beer, but it works really well. I just carbonate like normal and then when I am ready to serve, vent and just leave it at that. I won't vent it every time.

 

[Jwin]

It sounds like you just over carbed it to begin with. Venting the keg won't immediately uncarb the beer.
If you did, there is a trick of putting it at or just below the target serving pressure/carb level and shaking the keg. I forget exactly. But it's one here somewhere.
Assuming that's not the issue(I think it is)...
At a certain point, the biggest downside of a long beer line is a slow pour and possibly a warm line.
When you had 12ft, did the pour get slower?
If so, was the beer line warm(keezer in off cycle)?
Another tip is to pour 3-4 ounces(emptying the beer in the line) and waiting just a moment for the line to be chilled by the beer.

Good luck.

 

[ericbw]

If it's over carbed, it takes time to get it right. Gas off and vent it multiple times a day. I did this and it took about 2 weeks.

 

[Jwin]

https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8

Go to 7 minutes

 

[Grippi]

I had the same problem for a long time. I went to my LHBS asking questions and wanting them to provide me a solution, and they told me to just vent the keg down and leave it at 2-3 PSI. I know this isn't the best thing for the beer, but it works really well. I just carbonate like normal and then when I am ready to serve, vent and just leave it at that. I won't vent it every time.

that just stinks when you get home from work and just want one or two beers, and have to vent every time. Not terribly concerned about this particular beer, as I have a bunch in the pipeline coming up on kegging, but I don't want to have to do that with an ipa, or something with a lot of aroma, and flavor, and essentially knock the conditioning and aroma out a little everytime I just want a beer.

 

[Grippi]

It sounds like you just over carbed it to begin with. Venting the keg won't immediately uncarb the beer.
If you did, there is a trick of putting it at or just below the target serving pressure/carb level and shaking the keg. I forget exactly. But it's one here somewhere.
Assuming that's not the issue(I think it is)...
At a certain point, the biggest downside of a long beer line is a slow pour and possibly a warm line.
When you had 12ft, did the pour get slower?
If so, was the beer line warm(keezer in off cycle)?
Another tip is to pour 3-4 ounces(emptying the beer in the line) and waiting just a moment for the line to be chilled by the beer.

Good luck.

I have it set at 10-11 psi at a liquid temp of 39-40, when I check right after pouring. ambient temp in the keezer ranging from 32-36F. I will pull it back a bit and vent for a couple days, and see if that helps.

with the twelve foot line, on my other keg, it doesn't pour too slow with the psi's at about 12. pours perfect on the other keg, and other beer. Just this beer and coupler setup for some reason. maybe over carbed as you say.

I've tried pouring a whole pint, giving it a few second, and it's like it doesn't matter what line length I have, or the psi, it's just foam.

my beer lines are stored on top of the keg, so they should be cold.

I'm thinking overcarbed as you stated, but might try switching the coupler from the keg that's pouring great, just to make sure I don't have air seeping in somewhere. I've changed out the line 4 different times with different lengths, and 2 different cobra taps, so I think the draft line itself isn't the issue.

 

[brewshki]

that just stinks when you get home from work and just want one or two beers, and have to vent every time. Not terribly concerned about this particular beer, as I have a bunch in the pipeline coming up on kegging, but I don't want to have to do that with an ipa, or something with a lot of aroma, and flavor, and essentially knock the conditioning and aroma out a little everytime I just want a beer.

that is why I do it once when it is fully carbed and just leave it.

 

[Grippi]

If it's over carbed, it takes time to get it right. Gas off and vent it multiple times a day. I did this and it took about 2 weeks.

If changing the coupler doesn't work, I'm guessing your right, and will try lowering the carbonation. Kind of glad it happened on this batch. a learning experience on a beer I wasn't in love with anyway. It's drinkable, as I've drunk plenty of it trying to figure out the foam situation, granted a little flat, but it was a good one to screw up on if I had to learn the hard way. tried to force carb the rapid method of 30 psi and rolling it around. leaving it like that for a day, and then dropping the pressure down, but it does sound like I over did it. I'll be doing the set it and forget it method I think in the future. thinking the extra couple of weeks of conditioning in the keg would do this one well anyway, as well as most beers.

 

[Grippi]

Thanks guys for the quick replies. This site and forum are an amazing asset to a new homebrewer. Thanks again.

 

[Grippi]

that is why I do it once when it is fully carbed and just leave it.

won't it uncarbonate if you leave it that low?

 

[Grippi]

https://youtu.be/xk79UYGmAk8

Go to 7 minutes

seems counter-intuitive. I've seen people do this to carb the beer quicker, not de-carb the beer. Not saying it won't work, but I don't understand how it works to both carbonate, and decarbonate the beer. I'm assuming it has to do with him turning down the pressure before doing this, as oppose to doing this at 30 psi to carb it?

 

[NeoBrew]

One thing I have not seen mentioned is the possibility of the keg post/poppet/dip tube being messed up. A bad poppet can create turbulence in the beer that might cause foaming. This is also a place where a loose connection could introduce bubbles into the system.

I would tend to think that it is over-carbonation however.

 

[Jwin]

seems counter-intuitive. I've seen people do this to carb the beer quicker, not de-carb the beer. Not saying it won't work, but I don't understand how it works to both carbonate, and decarbonate the beer. I'm assuming it has to do with him turning down the pressure before doing this, as oppose to doing this at 30 psi to carb it?

As the big bubbles go through the beer, it knocks out the carbonation. Co2 wants to leave solution but the pressure in the headspace keeps in it solution. When you don't have pressure in the headspace and you have a large disturbance of the solution, co2 comes out.
Think, when you set a glass of soda down on the table and co2 bubbles rise up in a rush.

There's a thread over this somewhere with multiple positive accounts. The benefit is you don't have to worry about O2 or losing the seal on your lid by bleeding the pressure.
The whole 30psi shake has one major flaw(and a few minor). Over carbonation. You never know how many volumes you are at and you just keep shaking...

All signs, to me, point to over carbonation. The other possibilities would have at least been less apparent at lower psi/longer hoses.

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=127655

 

[doug293cz]

Sounds like the beer is over carbed. I'm surprised no one asked yet what your carbonation process was (unless I missed it.) Burst carb processes (as opposed to "set and forget" forced carbing) are notorious for causing over carb. So, what was your carb process?

A leak in the system will not allow air into the system, it will allow CO2 or beer out depending on the location of the leak. Air does not flow up a pressure gradient, nor does anything else.

The only leaks I know of that lead to foaming are internal leaks in the out tube "O" ring, which allows CO2 to leak into the dispensing stream. But I don't know if there is a similar mechanism for a Sanke.

Brew on

 

[Grippi]

As the big bubbles go through the beer, it knocks out the carbonation. Co2 wants to leave solution but the pressure in the headspace keeps in it solution. When you don't have pressure in the headspace and you have a large disturbance of the solution, co2 comes out.
Think, when you set a glass of soda down on the table and co2 bubbles rise up in a rush.

There's a thread over this somewhere with multiple positive accounts. The benefit is you don't have to worry about O2 or losing the seal on your lid by bleeding the pressure.
The whole 30psi shake has one major flaw(and a few minor). Over carbonation. You never know how many volumes you are at and you just keep shaking...

All signs, to me, point to over carbonation. The other possibilities would have at least been less apparent at lower psi/longer hoses.

thanks. makes a lot more sense now.

 

[Grippi]

Sounds like the beer is over carbed. I'm surprised no one asked yet what your carbonation process was (unless I missed it.) Burst carb processes (as opposed to "set and forget" forced carbing) are notorious for causing over carb. So, what was your carb process?

A leak in the system will not allow air into the system, it will allow CO2 or beer out depending on the location of the leak. Air does not flow up a pressure gradient, nor does anything else.

The only leaks I know of that lead to foaming are internal leaks in the out tube "O" ring, which allows CO2 to leak into the dispensing stream. But I don't know if there is a similar mechanism for a Sanke.

Brew on

I did the 30 psi, and shake it method. in the long run I plan to set and forget, but it being my first brew, Well, I just wanted to drink it. haha. lesson learned. knowing that everything is new, and tightened well, I have to agree at this point that it's probably over carbed. I'll probably try switching with fittings with the keg that is pouring well, just to make sure, but after reading everyones comments, over carbonation sounds the most consistent. You brew and you learn I guess. I'll be setting and letting the process do it's magic in the future.

 

[brewshki]

won't it uncarbonate if you leave it that low?

I don't believe so. The beer is fully carbonated and is in a sealed container. In my way of thinking, it is like a sealed can. I don't think the pressure will change all that much.

 

[Grippi]

I don't believe so. The beer is fully carbonated and is in a sealed container. In my way of thinking, it is like a sealed can. I don't think the pressure will change all that much.

Okay. I just figured from what others have said, that the liquid will try to reach equilibrium with the head space in the keg. So in theory the beer would eventually change carb level to what is set at, or what the pressure of the keg is. If it works it works though.

 

[billl]

" I'll be setting and letting the process do it's magic in the future."

If you are slightly impatient - like me - you can do a combination. A quick shake to get it mostly carbed and the set it at serving pressure to finish. Trying to get the carb level right on by shaking is challenging.

On the plus side, CO2 comes out of beer MUCH faster than it goes in. (Think beer left on the counter overnight). If you vent the keg, wait an hour, vent again etc. You'll be get back to a decent carb level pretty quickly. * note * turn off the gas or disconnect it.

 

[Yooper]

I don't believe so. The beer is fully carbonated and is in a sealed container. In my way of thinking, it is like a sealed can. I don't think the pressure will change all that much.

True- unless you pour a beer. Then, as the co2 tries to equalize, the beer will go flat. If it remains sealed, and never poured, it will remain carbed up to the pressure it holds. If someone opens the tap and pours a beer, that will change it.

The laws of physics state that gasses seek equilibrium. If you reduce the pressure to "serving pressure", the beer will lose carbonation. As a result, people will jack around with the pressure, up and down, so they can serve the beer and then put the pressure back up to hold the carbonation. What is really difficult is in the case of where you may have four taps- you'd be constantly jacking around with it.

It's really soooooo much easier to have a balanced system. My regulator is at 12 psi. I have four kegs currently on tap. They are all carbed up, and they all can be served with no issues. I would hate crawling in there all the time to pull the pressure relief valve and then mess around with the regulator and then turn it back up when done serving.

Getting the set up balanced may take a bit of thought, and probably different serving lines in many cases, but once it's done, it's done.

 

[ericbw]

Getting the set up balanced may take a bit of thought, and probably different serving lines in many cases, but once it's done, it's done.

+1000.

And then it's only occasional tweaking. But if you keep messing with it then it will never be right.

 

[brewshki]

Very fair. I just always had problems with the balancing even after using a few calculators and whatnot to try and find the correct length and such. Luckily, I have had very few issues so far.

 

[doug293cz]

Very fair. I just always had problems with the balancing even after using a few calculators and whatnot to try and find the correct length and such. Luckily, I have had very few issues so far.

The only calculator worth using is this one: http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/. All the other on-line calculators seem to have copied a bad line resistance per foot number from the same place, and provide line length estimates that are too short for most applications. Mike is the only one I know of that gets it right.

Brew on

 

[ericbw]

It's best to give the system time to settle in once you balance it. Run the numbers, set it up, and give it a day before making any other changes. Make changes, wait a day. Make changes, wait a day.

 

[brewshki]

I would like to retract all comments I have made. Over carbonated a beer and am pouring half foam...