Flameout hops as only hop addition?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

EllisTX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
836
Reaction score
49
Location
Booger County
On a fairly recent Can You Brew It episode they stated that one of Jamil's beers at Heretic is only hopped with flameout hops. Not only that but they also mentioned that his beer was too hoppy(I didn't catch whether they meant too bitter or too aromatic) since he couldn't cool his wort down fast enough. Apparently he had to install a new tank to facilitate in cooling the wort down faster. Their feeling is that a 30 minute or so whirlpool is equal to roughly a 20 min hop addition as far a bittering goes. Their discussion went further to say that a 30 minute whirlpool/hot rest at flameout also increases the bittering of late addition hops in the boil.

What is your opinion of this? Anyone made a beer with flameout hops only? Do you believe that I could put 2 oz of Citra in at flamout and get 40 ibus after a 30 minute whirlpool when 4 oz at 5 min will get me the same amount if I chill immediately at flameout?

I'd love to see some discussion about it. :mug:
 

erikpete18

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
822
Reaction score
34
Location
Seattle
I think there was a discussion a while back that might have some interesting info for you. Here it is. Basically I think the idea that it comes down to is that while alpha acids will readily isomerize at boiling temps, they will continue to do so at lower temps but at a lower pace. So especially if you are simply turning off the heat and whirlpooling while hot (~200 degrees?), you'll get a measured amount of bitterness from those additions. The trouble starts when you're trying to figure out how that's going to work, since most of the formulas assume boiling temps and already have their own caveats. As far as I know, no one has figured out the kinetics of alpha acid isomerization at lower than boiling temps, but it will occur.
 

BrewMU

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2011
Messages
516
Reaction score
8
Location
Columbia
I'm not sure, but there is only one way to find out. I'm going to do several one hop addition brews. A lot of people say that 30 minute additions are a waste, but I wonder how they know if they haven't done a batch with only a 30 minute addition. I'm eventually going to do a FWH only batch and a late addition only batch, maybe as a series of standardized, stripped down brews. Why have endless threads where we talk about whether a FWH addition bitters equivalently to a 20 minute addition when 2 batches can settle the question?
Question: what county are you from? Sounds like an arid, West Texas location.
 
OP
EllisTX

EllisTX

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
836
Reaction score
49
Location
Booger County
I'll be brewing in the next few days. I had planned a blonde ale but I'm probably going to do a pale ale so there is a bit more malt to balance the bitterness. I'm only going to hop at flameout and slap the lid on for 30 minutes to maintain the temp as much as possible. I don't have a pump so I'll be stirring periodicaly to keep the wort moving. I'm struggling with the fact that I could get 4 oz of hops in the wort with a 5 min addition only but get the same with 2 oz at flameout. I'm speaking in rough numbers of course since I don't have a formula to figure out my flameout numbers. Will 2 oz at flameout have more or as much hop flavor and aroma since nothing is being boiled off?

I'm located in Robertson County. Booger County is sort of the local nickname for the area.
 

Liesbeth

New Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Brewing a single Simcoe hop with only hop addition at flameout and dryhop. I'll let you know!
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,178
Reaction score
7,299
Location
Pasadena, MD
Anyone made a beer with flameout hops only? Do you believe that I could put 2 oz of Citra in at flamout and get 40 ibus after a 30 minute whirlpool when 4 oz at 5 min will get me the same amount if I chill immediately at flameout?
It depends largely on your whirlpool temps and how fast chilling gets it there. Put it in Beersmith 3 (estimates IBUs from whirlpool hops at reduced temps after the boil) and see for yourself. Or use Tinseth's formulas.

Batch size: 5.5 gallon (in fermenter, no kettle trub).
All hops are bagged in 2 large 22x9" fine mesh bags. Massaged and drained several times while in kettle.
In my NEIPAS I only use 7 or 8 grams of Warrior (18 %AA) at 60' yielding 15.5 or 17.5 IBUs.

Per Beersmith 3 I get another 10 IBUs from my 1st whirlpool hops (70g/2.5oz, 15.5 %AA) added at 170F, whirlpool/recirc for 10', then chilled to 150F which takes ~1-2 minutes. Hops they stay in the kettle.
Then another 8.4 IBUs from my 2nd whirlpool addition (again, 70g/2.5oz, 15.5 %AA) added at 150F, whirlpool/recirc for 30'.
I then chill down to fermenting temps which takes about 20-30'. Hops remain in kettle.

Then 120g (4.2oz) of dry hops at the end of fermentation.

At those (calculated) 35 IBUs, give or take, my NEIPAs are just bitter enough or could use a little more, depending on hops and grain bill. OG = 1.060
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
13,019
Reaction score
5,814
Location
S.AZ
holy necro thread! lol


but, i've just dry hopped 100% rice beer, didn't go sour on me.....didn't even boil the wort...

(and damn, i wish i could find a "Welcome New Challenger" meme that was good! Welcome!)
 

olotti

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
Messages
2,797
Reaction score
226
Location
Lansing
I'm going to do this soon. I ordered a bunch of hops before quarantine set in but I forgot to order my usual 4oz of Columbus or millennial I use for a 60' bittering addition, in my neipas I use about .5oz to get me to 25 ibis in the boil then the rest are fo hops at 190 and another at 170. So rather than waste money on shipping for 4oz of hops I'm just gonna skip any boil additions and just go with the fo, whirlpool, dh and see what happens.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,178
Reaction score
7,299
Location
Pasadena, MD
So rather than waste money on shipping for 4oz of hops I'm just gonna skip any boil additions and just go with the fo, whirlpool, dh and see what happens.
I hear ya on shipping killing any deal!

Don't you have any other hops around you could use for bittering?
For bittering NEIPAs I like to use Warrior, Magnum, Nugget, Eureka!, Columbus, Apollo, etc. They all do their bittering thing while adding a small personal touch.

If not, a decent charge at 190F flameout/first whirpool should get you there in 5-10 minutes, leaving enough flavor behind to be appreciated.
I was thinking of doing some that way, no early hops, just some high alpha IPA hops very late in the boil, at FO, or at a short high temp WP before dropping temps for the flavor/aroma hops. I can drop it down from boil to 150F in under 5' (6 gallons).
 

Jayjay1976

Bubblegazer
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Messages
3,579
Reaction score
2,888
Location
Chicago
I like to brew with only very late or flameout additions, the only problem being that the results are somewhat hard to predict. As others have said, the magic will still happen at lower temps but you generally need near boiling temps to isomerize at a predictable rate. Something about the time needed to convert all your whing-wangs to jibby-jabs. But don't let that stop you, learn by doing.

I have always found the bitterness of early boil additions to have an unpleasant quality compared to the fresher, more herbal bitter notes of whirlpool additions. When I was learning the ropes, the fact that it mattered little which specific hops I used for FW and 60-minute additions was a red flag. IME, it doesn't make much difference beyond the % of alpha acids, so when I brew traditional styles I'll often substitute whatever old hops I have laying around of a similar AA% for whatever hops that recipe calls for. Does it make a difference? I'm sure it does but that may be beyond my palate.

That being said, for 30 minute and later additions I follow the recipe.

EDIT: I should add, my chiller takes a while to do its thing so I also don't hold at a specific temp for a hopstand, I just drop them in and let it ride.
 
Last edited:

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
978
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
I like to brew with only very late or flameout additions, the only problem being that the results are somewhat hard to predict. As others have said, the magic happens at lower temps but you generally need near boiling temps to isomerize at a predictable rate. Something about the time needed to convert all your whing-wangs to jibby-jabs. But don't let that stop you, learn by doing.

I have always found the bitterness of early boil additions to have an unpleasant quality compared to the fresher, more herbal bitter notes of whirlpool additions. When I was learning the ropes, the fact that it mattered little which specific hops I used for FW and 60-minute additions was a red flag. IME, it matters little beyond the % of alpha acids, so when I brew traditional styles I'll often substitute whatever old hops I have laying around of a similar AA% for whatever hops that recipe calls for. Does it make a difference? I'm sure it does but that may be beyond the prowess of my palate.

That being said, for 30 minute and later additions I follow the recipe.

EDIT: I should add, my chiller takes a while to do its thing so I also don't hold at a specific temp for a hopstand, I just drop them in and let it ride.
I've had some really good luck with 90% + flameout/whirlpool hops, but I always add a small amount (say 0.25~0.50 oz) of FWH. I'm fortunate to be able to hold just about whatever temperature I want during whirlpool (electric boil pot) and BeerSmith 3 does a very good job at estimating IBU contributions at various temperatures and times. I'm settling into a routine of :20 minutes at 82C/180F, but I'll adjust up or down on temperature depending on the hops.

Maybe it's my imagination, but I feel like the bitterness from FWH is smoother and more predictable. I prefer a clean, high Alpha hop like CTZ or Magnum, but I've also used dual purpose hops as well as aroma hops in FWH. With FWH you get a broad range of isomerization temperatures from 170F (mashout) to full boil.

As opposed to FWH, whirlpool hops tend to be flavor/aroma varieties though some bittering hops can also produce some interesting results. More and more I'm getting away from dry hopping. I prefer a beer that drops clear (not a fan of NEIPAs) so I'd rather not add more vegetal trub to the fermenter. By using LoDO techniques especially on the cold side I find I can preserve the flavors and aromas of whirlpool hops for quite a long time without having to resort to dry hopping.

We've sure come a long way from the strict dogma of "bitter hops (early), flavor hops (late); nothing else in between."
Sure do like it better this way.

Brooo Brother
 

CascadesBrewer

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
1,261
Reaction score
829
Location
VA, USA
holy necro thread! lol
Interesting to see topics like this talked about in 2012. For me it really has been just the last 18 months or so that I have started to play around with only late hopping. I made an NEIPA with just Flameout + Dry hops that was nice. My last NEIPA I went with 10 min + Whirlpool + Dry Hop. It would be cool to try that side by side with the same IBUs added at 60 min. Also, more and more I am moving to 30 min boils and just adding a little extra hops to hit my target IBUs.
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
978
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
Interesting to see topics like this talked about in 2012. For me it really has been just the last 18 months or so that I have started to play around with only late hopping. I made an NEIPA with just Flameout + Dry hops that was nice. My last NEIPA I went with 10 min + Whirlpool + Dry Hop. It would be cool to try that side by side with the same IBUs added at 60 min. Also, more and more I am moving to 30 min boils and just adding a little extra hops to hit my target IBUs.
How has the :30 minute boil been working out for you? One of the last vestiges of "old school" brewing for me has been a reluctance to give up the 60/90 minute boil 'rule' for ales/lagers. A couple of years ago I compromised and decided to do both for 75 minutes. Also, no more roiling boils, just gentle simmering boil. Honestly I can't see where the lagers have suffered nor the ales improved.

So have you detected diacetyl or less clarity in your finished beers? My step mashes have gotten so long and involved that I'd sure like to claw some time back in my brew day. Extract brews are boiled for less than an hour, so why not all grain brews as well?

Brooo Brother
 

rodwha

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
4,958
Reaction score
291
Location
Lakeway
Back in 2014 I brewed an IPA using equal portions at 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins. This was measured at close to 100 IBUs. What I found was a peculiar tasting beer. The only thing I could figure was the lack of actual bittering hops. Maybe I should revisit this...
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
978
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
Back in 2014 I brewed an IPA using equal portions at 30, 20, 10, and 5 mins. This was measured at close to 100 IBUs. What I found was a peculiar tasting beer. The only thing I could figure was the lack of actual bittering hops. Maybe I should revisit this...
Adequate time is required to properly isomerize the hops, that is true. But a FWH that isomerizes while the wort is rising to the boil point gives you an extra 10-15 minutes exclusive of boiling. Hop shots would also give proper bittering to a short duration boil.

There are workarounds. It 'boils down' to a question of "how much is enough"? If I can get 45 minutes of my brew day back by going from 75 minutes to 30, it my be worth a batch or two to see if my beers are diminished by a shorter boil.

Brooo Brother
 

CascadesBrewer

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
1,261
Reaction score
829
Location
VA, USA
How has the :30 minute boil been working out for you?
I have not noticed any flaws in the beers that I could associate with the reduced boil. I used 30 minute boils on 5 different single grain pale ales (including one that was Wyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils). The beers tasted fine, and looked fine. I am not positive I could pick out DMS in a beer though. Looking back on my notes for recent brews, I did 30 minute boils for a Mild and the Hazy Pale (now in the fermenter, the Mild turned out nice), but I did 60 minute boils on several other recent brews. One of these days I will have to try a split batch.
 

Brooothru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,393
Reaction score
978
Location
Either in the brewery or on the road
I have not noticed any flaws in the beers that I could associate with the reduced boil. I used 30 minute boils on 5 different single grain pale ales (including one that was Wyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils). The beers tasted fine, and looked fine. I am not positive I could pick out DMS in a beer though. Looking back on my notes for recent brews, I did 30 minute boils for a Mild and the Hazy Pale (now in the fermenter, the Mild turned out nice), but I did 60 minute boils on several other recent brews. One of these days I will have to try a split batch.
That's encouraging news. I'm gonna' roll the dice and try it. BTW, I've got two On Deck recipes using the Floor Malted Bohemian for the first time. I've used many of the Weyermann grains (especially their German Pils) and really think they are superior in any Continental lagers.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
15
Reaction score
26
I brewed a NEIPA last year with 9 ounces of hops all added post boil. Everyone that tried it was shocked I didn't add any hops to the boil and felt a lot more of the individual hop flavors were coming out. I used a lot of New Zealand hops so the lime and citrus flavors were more pronounced rather than an extremely bitter hop flavor.
 

Hwk-I-St8

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Messages
1,889
Reaction score
832
Location
The Hawkeye State
I like to brew with only very late or flameout additions, the only problem being that the results are somewhat hard to predict. As others have said, the magic will still happen at lower temps but you generally need near boiling temps to isomerize at a predictable rate. Something about the time needed to convert all your whing-wangs to jibby-jabs. But don't let that stop you, learn by doing.

I have always found the bitterness of early boil additions to have an unpleasant quality compared to the fresher, more herbal bitter notes of whirlpool additions. When I was learning the ropes, the fact that it mattered little which specific hops I used for FW and 60-minute additions was a red flag. IME, it doesn't make much difference beyond the % of alpha acids, so when I brew traditional styles I'll often substitute whatever old hops I have laying around of a similar AA% for whatever hops that recipe calls for. Does it make a difference? I'm sure it does but that may be beyond my palate.

That being said, for 30 minute and later additions I follow the recipe.

EDIT: I should add, my chiller takes a while to do its thing so I also don't hold at a specific temp for a hopstand, I just drop them in and let it ride.
I think it can make a difference. I've noticed that beers that have early boil additions of citra get quite nasty pretty quickly for me (cat pee/body odor). I don't have that problem with, say, columbus (which is my go-to NEIPA early hop addiition).
 

Jayjay1976

Bubblegazer
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Messages
3,579
Reaction score
2,888
Location
Chicago
I think it can make a difference. I've noticed that beers that have early boil additions of citra get quite nasty pretty quickly for me (cat pee/body odor). I don't have that problem with, say, columbus (which is my go-to NEIPA early hop addiition).
That's good to know, I've not yet brewed with citra. Are there other, similar hops to watch out for in this regard?

I brewed a Dampfbier the other day and didn't have enough German Tettnanger on hand (@2.7% AA) for both the late additions and still manage a bittering charge sufficient to hit 20 IBUs so I subbed some US Tettnanger (5.5% AA) for the 60 minute addition.

In this case I don't expect any noticeable difference in the finished beer but I was actually quite relieved I had something relatively close to the recipe to use for bittering rather than using a totally different or much higher alpha hop. In summary, I'm starting to rethink my previous statements about early additions not mattering that much.
 
Top