First yeast cake pitch

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eadavis80

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I know many say pitching on a yeast cake is a "terrible idea due to an overpitch." Other say they do it regularly and find nothing wrong with it as their beers turn out "fine or great", have less cleanup and thus save time by not having to wash yeast or their carboys as much.

I did NB's Nut Brown ale with 1098 a few weeks back. I added some brown sugar and honey and the OG was 1.058, so I'd say not a "big beer." Yesterday, I racked that beer on the same day I brewed up NB's chocolate milk stout. I made it a mini-mash by adding 2 pounds of pale ale malt + a pound of oats to the grains. as well as 1/4 cup dissolved baker's chocolate. The OG of yesterday's beer was 1.070.

I have washed yeast dozens of times, but wanted to try pitching on a yeast cake for my own experience. NB in an e-mail said doing it once should be just fine. I have read that it usually generates a very aggressive fermentation.

My beer is right around 61 degrees now and it's been only about 16 hours since I pitched, but I thought I'd wake up to a batch that necessitated a blowoff tube. However, I'm experiencing anything but. The airlock has started to bubble, slightly, and there is the SLIGHTEST hint of a krausen forming. I thought things would be going bonkers by now, but it's probably due to the lower temp, right? I figure I'll keep in at that temp for the next day or two and see what happens.

My guess is by lunchtime I'll have a nice healthy ferment going, but am surprised by the "slow start" after pitching on a yeast cake.

What are your thoughts?
 
If you keep the beer at 61 degrees you may not see a huge krausen or the airlock going wild. Yeast likes it warmer but at that temp they keep on working but much slower than at 71. They also ferment cleaner (most often, some varieties may vary) when kept cool. After a week of cool like that I let my beer warm to 72 so the yeast doesn't go dormant.
 
I just pitched a sloppy slurry into a blonde ale - I put half of my yeast cake into two separate mason jars. The original pale ale I pulled it from was around the same gravity and only slightly more hoppy of a beer. I am using Wyeast's London Ale III.

The reason I feel compelled to post is I had pitched at 64 on Monday, a day later it was only up to 65. The krausen 36 hours in was less than an inch of krausen, so I actually was worried that I underpitched. Yesterday I walked downstairs to my basement and the yeast had kicked up to 68 and I had my first blow off. I use 7 gallon Fermonsters and this was a bit under 6 gallons of beer, so there was a decent amount of headspace that it ran through. Yesterday was unseasonably warm here (75 degrees!) and I'm sure this didn't do anything to slow the fermentation exploding.

TLDR: don't be shocked if it starts slow and explodes. Good luck!
 
RM- MN - Yeah, I pretty much knew all that - I just thought with a yeast cake pitch they'd still be pretty aggressive/active - similar to that of a warmer ferment. But hey - as long as they do their thing, that's all I really care about. Action has picked up in only a few hours since my initial post.
 
Riverevir said:
I just pitched a sloppy slurry into a blonde ale - I put half of my yeast cake into two separate mason jars. The original pale ale I pulled it from was around the same gravity and only slightly more hoppy of a beer. I am using Wyeast's London Ale III.

The reason I feel compelled to post is I had pitched at 64 on Monday, a day later it was only up to 65. The krausen 36 hours in was less than an inch of krausen, so I actually was worried that I underpitched. Yesterday I walked downstairs to my basement and the yeast had kicked up to 68 and I had my first blow off. I use 7 gallon Fermonsters and this was a bit under 6 gallons of beer, so there was a decent amount of headspace that it ran through. Yesterday was unseasonably warm here (75 degrees!) and I'm sure this didn't do anything to slow the fermentation exploding.

TLDR: don't be shocked if it starts slow and explodes. Good luck!
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It's chugging along - slow n' steady - so far. I bet by dinner I'll have a decent size krausen, but time will tell. I'm in Michigan so my basement is right around 60ish. I figure with the ferm temps increasing the wort's temp, it'll ferment around 63-64 for a few days and once the krausen starts to fall, I'll bring it upstairs where it's in the mid/upper 60's.
 
eadavis80 said:
It's chugging along - slow n' steady - so far. I bet by dinner I'll have a decent size krausen, but time will tell. I'm in Michigan so my basement is right around 60ish. I figure with the ferm temps increasing the wort's temp, it'll ferment around 63-64 for a few days and once the krausen starts to fall, I'll bring it upstairs where it's in the mid/upper 60's.
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I've done something similar in regards to pitching on yeast cakes. I Brewed a porter and used 1335, no starter just a very happy smack pack. The porter had a couple hours lag time before i saw good activity. I then brewed an Irish Red that kind of turned into a Wee Heavy that I pitched onto the Porters yeast cake, there was almost no lag time and bubbles started immediately and it was a very healthy ferment. After the Red the sediment and yeast cake got pretty large, when I siphoned the red into secondary i mixed a little water with the cake, stirred it up and dumped about half of it out to keep from over pitching and then siphoned the old ale directly onto it. I live in Tennessee so I can't help but ferment at around 68-72*F, the old ale worried me since the Red took off so quickly and it wasn't as quick to start. However, when I woke up in the morning I had just enough time to put a blowoff tube on it and it went for a solid 7 days with a vigorous fermentation. I won't be using the cake again just so I don't stress the yeast too far, though I was tempted to.

I think you'll be fine and I've done countless beers on previous yeast cakes. I think the factors that decide are gravity, activity and volume of yeast. All three beers taste magnificent so overpitching was not an issue.
 
Yeah, since NB told me I'd be okay trying it once, I'll see how it goes. IF I don't end up liking the beer, I'll not repeat this practice, but like everything in home brewing, you can really only judge for YOURSELF based on your OWN EXPERIENCE. If you're happy with the results, then that's all that matters. I'm hoping this works well and if it does, I'll brew up NB's Smash Pale Ale using Bry-97 and then use that cake for a DIIPA.
 
eadavis80 said:
Yeah, since NB told me I'd be okay trying it once, I'll see how it goes. IF I don't end up liking the beer, I'll not repeat this practice, but like everything in home brewing, you can really only judge for YOURSELF based on your OWN EXPERIENCE. If you're happy with the results, then that's all that matters. I'm hoping this works well and if it does, I'll brew up NB's Smash Pale Ale using Bry-97 and then use that cake for a DIIPA.
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Exactly. I look at others experiences as advice and sort of a 'what to expect' and I've had a few times where no one seemed to have good outcomes with certain 'experiments' i tried and mine ended up fantastic. As long as you're happy with your beer and your process then someone can't say you're doing it wrong.

Previously, I did like your saying doing a Pale ale and then a DIIPA. I always did it with Browns and Porters or Stouts. I was going to the extreme with the Porter>Red>Old Ale just to see if I could discern any detriments or pluses.
 
And you were happy with all 3 batches that were all from one Wyeast (no starter) smack pack and 2 repitches on previous cakes, correct?
 
Still not a vigorous or aggressive ferment, but it's chugging along in the low 60's. So far, all that talk about "you'll need a blowoff tube for sure!" I'm just not buying. As long as it gets it down to 1.022 or so I'll be happy (assuming there are no off flavors).
 
eadavis80 said:
Still not a vigorous or aggressive ferment, but it's chugging along in the low 60's. So far, all that talk about "you'll need a blowoff tube for sure!" I'm just not buying. As long as it gets it down to 1.022 or so I'll be happy (assuming there are no off flavors).
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I just remembered a BrewingTV episode where he worked through some ways to warm a carboy...



Just in case you wanted to try warmer ferm temps in the future.
 
I've actually watched that episode in the past... funny. One of the nice things about living in a tri-level is that they actually offer 3 different ambient temperatures. I usually ferment (and am now) in the lowest level with the carboy reading about 61-62 while fermentation is most active. I figure if ambient is there, the wort might be around 65 which is good. I'm guessing by Sunday the "aggressive" stage of fermentation will be over and then I'll move it upstairs which will be in the mid/upper 60's. The yeast are definitely swimming around a ton in that carboy. I just thought I'd see a bigger krausen - it's basically the same size as any other krausen I've seen with 1098 in the past, but maybe that's not a bad thing.
 
eadavis80 said:
I've actually watched that episode in the past... funny. One of the nice things about living in a tri-level is that they actually offer 3 different ambient temperatures. I usually ferment (and am now) in the lowest level with the carboy reading about 61-62 while fermentation is most active. I figure if ambient is there, the wort might be around 65 which is good. I'm guessing by Sunday the "aggressive" stage of fermentation will be over and then I'll move it upstairs which will be in the mid/upper 60's. The yeast are definitely swimming around a ton in that carboy. I just thought I'd see a bigger krausen - it's basically the same size as any other krausen I've seen with 1098 in the past, but maybe that's not a bad thing.
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I prefer to know instead of guessing. You could use one of the stick on "fermentometers" or use a non-contact infrared thermometer like I do. Both are accurate enough for checking fermentation temperatures. I couldn't read the stick on fermometer without getting down on my knees and at my age, that got old quickly. The infrared thermometer lets me stand clear across the room and read the temp.

With your ambient at 61, your fermenter is probably more like 63 than 65 since the ferment is pretty slow at that temperature.
 
Yeah, I have a stick on thermometer on the Bubbler which reads about 61-62. I've had mixed results with those. With English yeast strains, IME, I am not a huge fan of them when they go north of 65-66, so I think I'll keep it where it's at until the action slows down, then I'll move it up one flight of stairs.
 
I've yet to see anyone give a number or percentage where they say that's "overpitch". You would think that if it's a real thing, for homebrewing anyway, that it would have a number/ratio/formula, etc. "Don't go over ___," for instance. I've never seen it.
 
Krausen has completely fallen and I see no signs of fermentation activity. In fact, I haven't seen any signs in a couple of days. My guess is by pitching onto the cake it fermented out in a few days. I'll take a reading either today or tomorrow. My OG was 1.070, but that included a point of lactose, so I'm hoping the FG is at least 1.025, hopefully closer to 1.020 which would be around 1.010 without the unfermentable lactose addition.
 
Well, early on I'd consider my experiment a fail. I thought for sure pitching on a cake would have ample yeast to do the job, but my beer - 8 days after pitching onto the cake of 1098 - has taken the OG of a chocolate stout with 1 pound of lactose and a mini mash in the upper 150's - to only 1.030. IME, yeast will do their job within a week of pitching. It's been in the mid 60's the entire time. Not only is my gravity higher than I wanted, but there is too much honey and brown sugar sweetness in the beer. Maybe this will lessen with more time as I plan on giving the beer another week in the primary and maybe raising the temp a few degrees in hopes of dropping the gravity some, but right now it's far from the chocolate flavor I had on brew day. Hopefully racking on nibs will help with the lack of chocolate flavor, but at this point, I think pitching on a cake was a mistake. I really don't know why the gravity isn't lower. The yeast got the previous batch from 1.060 to 1.011 - it should not have been that stressed. The flavor mix up, I'm not shocked by, but I am disappointed in. However, I thought for sure the gravity would be lower than 1.030.
 
I'm going to take another reading today in hopes that it's dropped below 1.030, but I doubt it has dropped any. If it has not, would you 1) swirl the yeast (I warmed it up a few degrees since the first reading which was taken 8 days after brew day 2) pitch dry Notty into it 3) make a starter for Notty and add that? I want my stout sweet, but bottling at 1.030 has me very nervous. I did mash high and it has a pound of lactose, but my attenuation was only 57% with a CAKE of Wyeast 1098.
 
Well, the gravity is still 1.030, but - more importantly - it tastes better than the sample I tried 8 days after brewing which was also 1.030. The honey sweetness I feared had transferred from the previous yeast cake has diminished and now it's got that nice roasty stout flavor I was looking for with a heavy body. I'll rack over the nibs in a few days. I put them in vanilla flavor vodka and also added 2 vanilla beans as well.
 
eadavis80 said:
I'm going to take another reading today in hopes that it's dropped below 1.030, but I doubt it has dropped any. If it has not, would you 1) swirl the yeast (I warmed it up a few degrees since the first reading which was taken 8 days after brew day 2) pitch dry Notty into it 3) make a starter for Notty and add that? I want my stout sweet, but bottling at 1.030 has me very nervous. I did mash high and it has a pound of lactose, but my attenuation was only 57% with a CAKE of Wyeast 1098.
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Did you use any recipe software to calculate a FG? 1.030 seems high but a pound of lactose or other un-fermentables could be the culprit. Racking it onto nibs will rouse dormant yeast also, so you may see activity kick up a small amount and finish out drier. I wouldn't do any extra things like amylase enzyme. If it's still at 1.030 when you go to bottle you can adjust carbonation levels.

The last beer I racked over my 3rd pitch yeast cake also finished at 1.030 with no adjuncts in the brew except Black Treacle at 60 and it being the first with my propane burner I more than likely scorched some of the sugars, since the yeast was so healthy. I bottled with the normal amount of dextrose and have had no bottle bombs yet and I'll be testing the first bottle for carb later today.

The important thing is that the beer is good and you like it... I actually have a chili beer racked onto more chilis, cocoa nibs, and cocoa tequila right now. Gotta say those cocoa nibs are amazingly aromatic and tasty.
 
Why would the GRAVITY dictate how much priming sugar I should use? Shouldn't the STYLE, TEMPERATURE and STYLE of the beer dictate how much I should use, not the gravity? In my experience, in anything darker than an amber, I like to use just a touch over 1/3 cup of priming sugar for a batch. When I use 2/3 of a cup, as some suggest, the beer is way too carbonated. I like very little carbonation in darker beers.
 
If you add more sugar and the yeast chew through 1.030 to 1.020 in the bottle you’ll over carbonate your beer. If the yeast doesn’t eat any of the 1.030 sugars, assuming they’re unfermentable, you’ll be fine.

Edit: on a 5% beer I’m a little surprised it has stopped so high. You’d have a LOT of unfermentables if you pitched on a yeast cake. If you can get it up to about 66F it might drop the gravity more.
 
Now I'm confused - how could the priming sugar make the yeast suddenly chew below the 1.030 mark that they've been stuck at for a week or so? The yeast would eat the priming sugar, sure, but why would they suddenly be able to eat - what were - unfermentable sugars prior to the addition of the priming sugar?
 
Right - I understand that, so that's my question - how could the yeast suddenly consume sugars that were seemingly unfermentable? Is it possible that the priming sugar would "wake up or strengthen or resurrect" the yeast and give them the ability to chew through sugars that were previously unfermentable? Would it be wise to add priming sugar solution now (to primary) and let it sit for a week and see if the gravity of the beer stays at 1.030 after having added the priming sugar? I don't want to prime the bottles and then have a 10-point gravity drop and therefore bottle bombs.
 
If the sugar was unfermentable at first, it should continue to be unfermentable. I am not a microbiologist, but unfermentability is apparently not the only reason yeast go dormant. It was a caveat from what I read, not really a big deal.

Really, the problem is not knowing why your yeast stalled. That would be something worth knowing.
 
Yeah, I don't KNOW if it's stalled. I just THOUGHT pitching a yeast cake would result in a lower FG than I have, but I did have 2 pounds of oats (have read conflicting reports if those add to gravity and/or are fermentable when mashed), I added 1/4 cup of baker's chocolate and a pound of lactose while mashing in the upper 150's. So, I WAS HOPING the gravity was around 1.025, but maybe 1.030 is right. I just fear a fizzy stout in a few months. Those suck.
 
eadavis80 said:
Why would the GRAVITY dictate how much priming sugar I should use? Shouldn't the STYLE, TEMPERATURE and STYLE of the beer dictate how much I should use, not the gravity? In my experience, in anything darker than an amber, I like to use just a touch over 1/3 cup of priming sugar for a batch. When I use 2/3 of a cup, as some suggest, the beer is way too carbonated. I like very little carbonation in darker beers.
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My comment was meant as if it's 'too thick' for you at bottling you could try adjusting carbonation to give it a thinner feel. If you like low carb then go as you normally do. I think when you rack to secondary you'll see any extra fermentation that's going to happen if any. The 1.030 is from unfermentables most likely. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Oh, I got you now. And, for what it's worth, I don't think it's possible for this stout to be too thick... I added lactose and 2 pounds of oats because I want it to be tar-like when I pour it :)
 
I came up with this idea in hopes of preventing bottle bombs which I had the last time I bottled a stout with a high FG of 1.030... This 1.030 was stable for over a week prior to bottling, so I'm thinking of trying this instead: Would there be anything wrong this - when I rack the beer over the cocoa nibs today to add in the priming sugar AT THAT TIME as well. I'd let it sit on the nibs and it would ferment out the priming sugar as well in that time. Before bottling, I'd take another gravity reading and make sure it was still at 1.030. Last time I had a "stable" gravity of 1.030 on a stout after a month in the bottle they became way too carbonated and I was like - WTF? I checked the gravity and the "stable" gravity had dropped to 1.020 so somehow that priming sugar solution "energized" the yeast to consume stuff it could not do before. By putting in a few ounces of priming sugar solution, I'd prevent that same mistake as it would "get below" 1.030 while it was in secondary, not in the bottle.
 
eadavis80 said:
I came up with this idea in hopes of preventing bottle bombs which I had the last time I bottled a stout with a high FG of 1.030... This 1.030 was stable for over a week prior to bottling, so I'm thinking of trying this instead: Would there be anything wrong this - when I rack the beer over the cocoa nibs today to add in the priming sugar AT THAT TIME as well. I'd let it sit on the nibs and it would ferment out the priming sugar as well in that time. Before bottling, I'd take another gravity reading and make sure it was still at 1.030. Last time I had a "stable" gravity of 1.030 on a stout after a month in the bottle they became way too carbonated and I was like - WTF? I checked the gravity and the "stable" gravity had dropped to 1.020 so somehow that priming sugar solution "energized" the yeast to consume stuff it could not do before. By putting in a few ounces of priming sugar solution, I'd prevent that same mistake as it would "get below" 1.030 while it was in secondary, not in the bottle.
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That should work honestly... And if the priming sugar doesn't ferment you'd know the yeast is exhausted and could then toss in a packet of US-05 or something and you'd have peace of mind then.
 
Yeah, I guess if I don't see any airlock activity, mild krausen, anything moving or the gravity after a week is ABOVE 1.030 THEN I'd know I'd have to make a starter with Notty or 05 and pitch that and then maybe RE-RACK over more nibs - worse case scenario is I'd get even more chocolate flavor.
 
eadavis80 said:
Yeah, I guess if I don't see any airlock activity, mild krausen, anything moving or the gravity after a week is ABOVE 1.030 THEN I'd know I'd have to make a starter with Notty or 05 and pitch that and then maybe RE-RACK over more nibs - worse case scenario is I'd get even more chocolate flavor.
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Has anyone done an experiment of nibs with active fermentation vs without active... I think you'd get more flavor if you had them during active fermentation. So, WOULD you need to rerack over more nibs??? I actually screwed up last weekend and tried to sanitize with tequila, but it was flavored, only 30% and had sugar out the ass and I was too blitzed on homebrew to realize, so my nibs are in during an active fermentation too.
 
Everything I've ever read has said to rack on nibs after fermentation is complete, but given the tiny amount of fermentables I'm using in this experiment with 1/3 cup of corn sugar over 4.5 gallons of beer, I don't think it's "really" an "active fermentation." I'm just looking to see if the gravity goes BELOW 1.030 from this addition of corn sugar. Assuming I'm still at 1.030 next week (a week after the experiment began), I'll let the beer sit on those nibs for 2-3 more weeks and then bottle. If I still have bottle bombs after this experiment, I'll just throw my hands up and give up...
 
eadavis80 said:
Everything I've ever read has said to rack on nibs after fermentation is complete, but given the tiny amount of fermentables I'm using in this experiment with 1/3 cup of corn sugar over 4.5 gallons of beer, I don't think it's "really" an "active fermentation." I'm just looking to see if the gravity goes BELOW 1.030 from this addition of corn sugar. Assuming I'm still at 1.030 next week (a week after the experiment began), I'll let the beer sit on those nibs for 2-3 more weeks and then bottle. If I still have bottle bombs after this experiment, I'll just throw my hands up and give up...
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Never give up... I had a problem with my capper last time I bottled and the two batches I have coming up for bottling are going in flip tops and I'm saving to start up kegging... Look at it as a reason to get more equipment...
 
It's still at 1.030 so I see no reason I'd get bottle bombs in a month or so. The yeast fermented the priming sugar solution and is still at the same gravity it was prior to the priming sugar solution. I'll let it sit on the nibs n' beans for 1-2 more weeks and bottle with just over 1/3 cup of priming sugar. The sample tasted good, so I'm hoping the batch turns out nicely.
 
eadavis80 said:
It's still at 1.030 so I see no reason I'd get bottle bombs in a month or so. The yeast fermented the priming sugar solution and is still at the same gravity it was prior to the priming sugar solution. I'll let it sit on the nibs n' beans for 1-2 more weeks and bottle with just over 1/3 cup of priming sugar. The sample tasted good, so I'm hoping the batch turns out nicely.
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Glad to hear it turned out well.
 
Now, if only my honey nut brown would be nice n' carbonated by Saturday's March Madness party. I tried one last week (only a week after bottling) and it was flat as a board, but that's only a week and I wanted low carbonation for that one anyhow.
 

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