First Saison Tips

[geom44]

I'm contemplating my first Saison. I browsed a number of recipes and put together my own. I would love to get some advice on a few things. First, does a 60min boil vs 90 min boil have a drastic effect? I'm worried about losing too much volume in a 90. Second has anyone used this yeast with any luck? Third, do you have a recommended light candi sugar amount or should I mix in some agave nectar to spice things up a bit. Take a look and spill your thoughts please:

9 lbs Weyermann German pils malt/ 2-row
1 lbs Cara 20L or Wheat
1 lbs Rye
1 oz Fuggle hops 90 min*
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 20 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 1 min
0.7 oz Fuggle 1 min
6g Orange Peel 10min
0.5-2 lbs Light Candi Sugar***
?? Agave In The Raw Nectar***
Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast**

 

[giraffe]

If you use Pilsner malt, do a 90 min boil. Otherwise there is a risk of dms. Add more sparge water, or top off with more water to reach final volume, its no big deal.

Light candi sugar is just sucrose, use table sugar. (dark is a different story) The complexity of a saison comes from fermentation, keep the malt and sugar simple.

Id use the wheat over the c20. Keep it dry.

Id use citrus zest over the dried peel or leave it out entirely.

Ive never used that yeast.

 

[geom44]

Thanks bud. I'm thinking now that I'll just do a 2-row with just the rye (no wheat or cara) as well as dropping the orange. I think keeping it simple is a great idea to see where to go to next as well as the character of the yeast. Here's the edit:

10 lbs 2-row
1 lbs Rye
1 oz Fuggle hops 60 min*
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 20 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 1 min
0.7 oz Fuggle 1 min
0.5-2 lbs Light Candi Sugar (I have some homemade that I can get rid of)
Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast

 

[Chadwick]

If you are bottling, give the beers plenty of time to condition. The last Saison I did with that yeast tasted just like it was infected and turning into vinegar until it fully conditioned. Then it tasted wonderful. I'm glad I didn't dump based on my initial impression at 2 weeks of bottle conditioning. It tasted good at 5 weeks, better after 6.

 

[Xpertskir]

I'll echo what others above have said plus

Don't be afraid to ferment hot, pitch at ~70 and this time of year make sure you have some heating capability, you'll likely need it to get towards 80... An electric blanket works great


Honestly I'd probably switch yeasts, I haven't tasted any saisons made with belle saison that bring the funk that I want.

But if you're going for a mild slight perfume/spice the belle saison will give you that.

 

[beergolf]

Nobody has mentioned this, but mash low so the brew will really dry out.

Belle Saison is pretty good. Not as good as my favorite 3724. The only thing is that 3724 does require a very high temp to work properly. Belle Saison is not as temp sensitive and will work at normal ferment temps.

 

[geom44]

If I mash around 149 is that low enough? Also with a 1600 mL starter,
pitching at around 70-72 and fermenting at 73 F to 88 F and back to 73 F for 3 weeks total (making sure to get it into the 80s)? Might be kegging but am open to bottling and conditioning for an extra few weeks. Thoughts on all this?

Also this is the current edit, I got worried about the sugars so I upped the base malt (too high?):

14 lbs 2-row
1 lbs Rye
1 lbs CaraPils
1 oz Fuggle hops 60 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 20 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur 1 min
0.7 oz Fuggle 1 min
1 lbs Sucrose
Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast


Thanks for all the free advice guys.

 

[Calder]

If you use Pilsner malt, do a 90 min boil. Otherwise there is a risk of dms. Add more sparge water, or top off with more water to reach final volume, its no big deal.

Light candi sugar is just sucrose, use table sugar. (dark is a different story) The complexity of a saison comes from fermentation, keep the malt and sugar simple.

Id use the wheat over the c20. Keep it dry.

Id use citrus zest over the dried peel or leave it out entirely.

Ive never used that yeast.

^^^ All of this.

Go 2 lbs of sugar
Mash low
Ferment high
Drop the Agave

 

[geom44]

What about using sucrose vs dextrose? Big difference there? I've been using dextrose for priming so it seems that if dextrose serves the same function for fermentation when used in a boil, I should just buy dextrose because I get two uses out of the same ingredient. However I feel my ignorance is hindering me here.

 

[Calder]

What about using sucrose vs dextrose? Big difference there? I've been using dextrose for priming so it seems that if dextrose serves the same function for fermentation when used in a boil, I should just buy dextrose because I get two uses out of the same ingredient. However I feel my ignorance is hindering me here.

I think you will find 90% of folks out there will tell you sucrose and dextrose are pretty much the same. Sucrose (table sugar) is cheaper, so use that.

Some will say it creates a cider flavor - that just a myth, or a product of old ingredients and techniques. I've used it up to 30% in some Belgians with no issues.

Some will say you have to use dextrose. They are usually the newer brewers who have not yet beenbrave enough to try table sugar.

Try it, you will like it, and never pay the premium for dextrose again. If you try it and really believe there is a difference, then at least you have experience to back up your selection.

Yes there is a difference. Dextrose is more readily fermentable ..... but only slightly, and you would never notice. Yeast has to do some work to break down sucrose to make it as fermentable, but it has the enzymes, and does it with no problem.

 

[AndytheBeave]

I just kegged my first saison using Belle Saison yeast and it turned out fantastic. I used 2-row malt and instead of candi sugar, I used honey. Apart from the yeast, I basically followed the the Cottage Saison recipe (with a couple of minor substitutions). I can't state enough how much of a fan I am of this yeast. It is a crazy mofo though, so make sure you have a blow-off tube.
My beer went from 1.056 to 1.002. My fermentation temp finisheded at around 24 Deg C. Like another poster stated, my beer doesn't have crazy funk to it, but it has delicious spice with nice mild estery notes to it.
So to answer your post, I would use 1lb honey instead of candi sugar or agave nectar, drop the crystal 20, keep the wheat but add some Munich or Crystal 70

 

[Chadwick]

My beer went from 1.056 to 1.002.

I got super high attenuation out of this yeast as well. I certainly agree that it is a beast.

 

[geom44]

Final recipe is below and she's fermenting like a beast at about 78-88 F. Still bubbling in a blowoff after four days. Excited to taste the final product as we gambled on a lot of sugar to put this yeast to work.

14 lbs 2-row (3.5 Briess, 10.5 Rahr)
0.5 lbs Flaked Rye
1 lbs Biscuit
TOTAL MALT = 15.5 lbs

1 oz Fuggle hops (4.3% A) 60 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur (3.4% A) 20 min
0.5 oz German Hallertaur (3.4% A) 1 min
0.7 oz Fuggle (4.3% A) 1 min
TOTAL HOPS 2.7g

3g Orange peel (10 min)
2g Coriander (10 min)

2 lbs Sucrose/Dextrose (5 min)
1.8 lbs Candi (5 min)

Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast

 

[Calder]

How many gallons? 10 at 1.060, or 5 at1.120?

Sucrose or dextrose, there is a different gravity contribution.

I don't know that yeast, 80+ seems high. I ferment most of my Belgians high too, but research the yeast first.

~25% simple sugar is ok.

 

[geom44]

Did a 5 gallon yield at around 1.070, ended up using sucrose

 

[Calder]

Did a 5 gallon yield at around 1.070, ended up using sucrose

That is pretty bad if you used 15.5 lbs of grain and 3.8 lbs of sugar. The sugar should get you to around 1.030. To only get another 40 points, you would have only gotten about 40% efficiency.

 

[m1batt1]

Having used the belle saison I can tell you a couple things. One it is a beast and will eat everything in the wort. Don't be surprised if your final gravity is down around 1.000. I've never made one with quite that high of OG but I think my highest was 1.064 and it took it down to 1.000. Also the higher temps won't hurt with this one. I split a batch with this yeast for an experiment of sorts. I started both in the low to mid 70's and after a week I put one bucket in the garage in the July heat. Ended up a bit more funky but nothing bad in my opinion.