First Lager

[jldc]

OK I'm going to try my first lager next weekend.

I'm going to try to keep things as simple as possible.

The recipe is the Oktoberfest from Brewing Classic Styles except I'm going to use WLP 830 German Lager yeast. OG appx 1.055.

Large 3.5 liter starter on stirplate. I will ferment this at 52 degrees for several days then cold crash and pitch the slurry.

Chill to below fermentation temp, 48 or less, and ferment at 50 for 4-5 weeks in primary until I'm certain I've hit my FG. I may keep a little wort/yeast for a forced ferment test to help with this.

At 4-5 weeks, I'm going to keg and lager at 35-40 for 5-6 weeks, then carb and serve from this same keg. Prior to kegging, I will taste for diacetyl but I don't plan on a diacetyl rest unless I taste something off. I think pitching cold will prevent the need for a rest.

At appx 2.5 months post brewing, drink and enjoy.

Please point out any problems you see with this technique.

L

 

[Hammy71]

Only thing I would suggest, because it's worked well with me and lagers is: After the lagering period I force transfer the lager to another keg. Your basically cold crashing the lager for 5-6 weeks and the 'gunk' that settles out can be pretty thick. Just speeds up the amount of pints before you get clear, non-yeasty beer.

 

[jldc]

Only thing I would suggest, because it's worked well with me and lagers is: After the lagering period I force transfer the lager to another keg. Your basically cold crashing the lager for 5-6 weeks and the 'gunk' that settles out can be pretty thick. Just speeds up the amount of pints before you get clear, non-yeasty beer.

Do you lager in a keg with a shortened dip tube?

L

 

[StoneHands]

I would also say it's not necessary to complete your starter at fermentation temps if you're decanting and just pitching the slurry. I always give myself a little longer on my lager starters too, they take a little longer to ferment and definitely take a little longer to cold crash. I usually do my lager starters a week before brewday - this may be a little longer than most though, not sure.

 

[asterix404]

So you want to start your fermentation at about 55 and let the yeast really populate and lower your temp to 45 over 2 days, no more than 5 degree per day change. Wait about 3 weeks and transfer into the secondary. Lager 6 weeks (1 week per 10GP). Start out at 40 and work your way down to about 33.

You can never have enough yeast in the starter. I only use dry yeast and I would use 2 packets of the stuff for your beer.

 

[944play]

So you want to start your fermentation at about 55 and let the yeast really populate and lower your temp to 45

This is the opposite of what I would prefer. The growth phase is where most esters and other flavor-active yeast byproducts are made. If you're going to underpitch and thereby extend that period, you would want it to be slow and well-controlled to minimize diacetyl, etc. Also, I have a strong impression that lager yeast are far more active than their spoilage-microbe competitors at the lower end of their temperature range.

 

[Yooper]

This is the opposite of what I would prefer. The growth phase is where most esters and other flavor-active yeast byproducts are made. If you're going to underpitch and thereby extend that period, you would want it to be slow and well-controlled to minimize diacetyl, etc. Also, I have a strong impression that lager yeast are far more active than their spoilage-microbe competitors at the lower end of their temperature range.

Yes, me too. I'd rather pitch lower and let the wort rise UP to 50 degrees. There is a lot of information from Jamil Zainasheff on the hows/whys/purposes of this, so I won't go into that here. But it's worth reading about to understand how much yeast to pitch and how the temperature at pitching affects the flavor profile.

The other thing I'd consider is doing a diacetyl rest after primary is nearly done. If you don't need one, fine, but it won't hurt to do one as a matter of course. If you wait until later, then it'll be too late if you did need one!

 

[Hammy71]

Do you lager in a keg with a shortened dip tube?

L

No, I refuse to cut my diptubes and waste beer...lol. I too do as Yooper suggest. I do a rest, rather I need it or not. Can't hurt.

 

[Willum]

Yes, me too. I'd rather pitch lower and let the wort rise UP to 50 degrees. There is a lot of information from Jamil Zainasheff on the hows/whys/purposes of this, so I won't go into that here. But it's worth reading about to understand how much yeast to pitch and how the temperature at pitching affects the flavor profile.

The other thing I'd consider is doing a diacetyl rest after primary is nearly done. If you don't need one, fine, but it won't hurt to do one as a matter of course. If you wait until later, then it'll be too late if you did need one!

I agree do the d-rest. I brew a lot of lagers and I never use to do rest. One day it finally happened, I made a butterscotch Marzen. Now I always do a D-rest, better safe then sorry.

 

[osagedr]

Count me as another vote for pitching cool and doing a d-rest.

 

[osagedr]

I agree do the d-rest. I brew a lot of lagers and I never use to do rest. One day it finally happened, I made a butterscotch Marzen. Now I always do a D-rest, better safe then sorry.

Were you able to "fix" your Marzen? I fixed a d-bomb Oktoberfest once (there's a thread somewhere here about it) and told myself never again. Now everything gets a rest. Can't hurt anything I figure but could save a lot of trouble!

 

[jldc]

So how/when do you do your d-rest? At what temp for how long?

L

 

[osagedr]

So how/when do you do your d-rest? At what temp for how long?

L

I do it about 8 or 10 points above final gravity. 1.020 or slightly under as a rule of thumb; although for bigger lagers that may be right at (or even under!) FG so you have to be careful. If you were being extremely careful, you would do a forced ferment test to find your FG, then you would know exactly when to do the d-rest. But generally I go at 1.020 or just under.

As an example I just did a bock, started my rest about 1.023 because I suspected I was close to FG, which turned out to be 1.018. So I didn't get quite the d-rest I wanted, but I pitched and fermented in the mid-40s and can't detect any diacetyl in the beer so feel like I'm safe anyway.

I do my d-rests at room temperature (70 degrees) but anything 60 or over should suffice. Basically you want to give the the yeast a bit of a temperature bump to keep them active long enough to consume any diacetyl present (it won't always, or even often be there). Lots of brewers just taste their beer for diacetyl, and if they detect none, don't bother with the rest. I always do one for lagers, and occasionally for ales, depending on the yeast strain. For example I recently did about 6 beers with Wyeast 1882--the manufacturer warns users a d-rest will be necessary, and trust me, it is!

 

[Hammy71]

Similar to osagedr. I usually ferment lagers for 10 days @ 50 degrees. Then set the temperature controler on my fridge to 60 and let it warm up. Usually takes around 24 hrs. Let it sit for a couple of days at 60. Then crash cool the fermenter to around 35 degrees for a few days and keg.

 

[Sir-Brews-Alot]

This is the opposite of what I would prefer. The growth phase is where most esters and other flavor-active yeast byproducts are made. If you're going to underpitch and thereby extend that period, you would want it to be slow and well-controlled to minimize diacetyl, etc. Also, I have a strong impression that lager yeast are far more active than their spoilage-microbe competitors at the lower end of their temperature range.

To play devil's advocate, according to Chris White, this ideology is false. It is perfectly safe to start at a higher temp, let your yeast multiply, then steadily drop to fermentation temps. Apparently the key is to severely underpitch (ie. pitching a single vial) to ensure yeast growth is occurring.

That said, I have always pitched a huge starter (decanted) below temp (~45°) and then raise the temp to 48°, and I still do that. I've always been afraid to try the other way since this works so well for me.

BTW, this is the podcast where Chris White discusses pitching high and lowering the temps, specifically at the 02:24:20 mark is where the temp discussion begins.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Sunday-Session/The-Sunday-Session-08-20-06-Yeast-w/-the-White-s-2

 

[asterix404]

So let me explain a bit. Yes, yeast is most active in the first 72h, you need the yeast to take hold first. I pitched to packets with my beer at 45 and nothing happened for a week. Just because the yeast will ferment between 42 and 68 does not mean that you should actually start at such a low temp. You don't get controlled growth, in my experience you get no growth and another packet of yeast to pitch.

Starting at 55 until the first signs of fermentation and dropping the temp slowly to 45 doesn't produce esters with a clean fermenting lager strain. Going higher than 60 might, going at 68 will. Fermenting slowly at 45 for 3 weeks gets a very clean, very low dactyl and very low ester profile. The trick is pitching the correct amount and seeing first signs of active fermentation to know that your yeast is taking to the wort. Once it has taken, drop the temp slowly to not shock it, 5deg per day. This includes lagering times because believe it or not, the yeast is still active at 33, but very slowly working.

This brings me to a d-rest. I don't do one, I don't know why anyone would do one. The yeast will produce little or no extra dactyl that it doesn't clean up as part of the last phases of fermentation. If you are getting dactyl, it is a problem with the production of extra amounts for various reasons. The cleaning up phase when I lager takes 1 week per 10GP or more. Most of the time I forget about it and wait until about 6-10 weeks. I am guessing that the d-rest is to shorten the lagering period but mine are very long. One lager I am going to do eventually will be a traditional octoberfest with the 6 month lagering.

I have done about 10 lagers in this fashion, I have only had one very strange one which I used the pilsner white labs strain with a starter. It did something strange where the krausen never fell. The other was when I started it too cold and the yeast never took off. I have had spectacular results, no esters, no dactyl, at least none detectable.

 

[Sir-Brews-Alot]

Just because the yeast will ferment between 42 and 68 does not mean that you should actually start at such a low temp. You don't get controlled growth, in my experience you get no growth and another packet of yeast to pitch.

Correct, that is why people are saying you have to actually pitch ENOUGH yeast to where they will not need to grow, and can start fermenting right away (using Mr.Malty to figure out how many yeast cells are needed to ferment quantity/gravity of said wort). Hence the 5-6L starters for lagers. A lot of folks believe this to be the optimum way to brew a very clean, crisp lager, and from my experience, I am inclined to agree.