first lager

[teambarber]

hey guys, I've gotten my lips wet a few times with some ales and now I'm going to try a lager. I've got a Dutch lager(Grolsch clone) and I know I'm supposed to cold ferment but how cold. The beer store said I'd be okay at 45-55 degrees F. I've heard it should be colder than that. Any good tips for a noob I've got a spare refrigerator to use and everything to do it right. I'm just not sure how to start. ( such as using primary to cold ferment or secondary, or what temperture is best.) thanx guys. I know you will give me plenty of answers Cheers!

 

[bja]

I always pitch lagers 45 and let it rise to 50 and hold it there. Just make a big starter.

 

[teambarber]

I'm doing 5gals and them I'm kegging it. so 45-50 degrees is okay then.

 

[bja]

What yeast are you using?

 

[teambarber]

white labs wlp830 strain (german lager)

 

[944play]

The beer store said I'd be okay at 45-55 degrees F. I've heard it should be colder than that.

The lagering phase (after the beer is done fermenting and you've racked it off the yeast cake) should be colder.

 

[osagedr]

Your yeast package will indicate the proper temperature range. A temperature controller is a nice toy; if you don't have one make sure your fridge can maintain temperature within the proper fermentation range.

Here are some things to put on your to do list for your lager:

(1) make a big enough starter because your yeast have to work really hard at reduced temperatures. Use the pitching rate calculator at mrmalty.com to calculate your starter size. While you're there, review the FAQ about yeast starters.

(2) plan ahead for your diacetyl rest so you know what gravity you want to hit (prior to the end of primary fermentation) before your rest.

(3) decide how to configure your temperature reduction prior to the lagering period. I do a couple of degrees per day from d-rest to lagering temp (just above freezing)

(4) calculate how long you want to lager for. I've done a week per six points of OG but lots of people go shorter.

Good luck!

 

[teambarber]

so what your saying is ferment it at 45-50 then rack to secondary and drop the temp even colder like 25-35F or more?

 

[osagedr]

You will really want to do some reading before you attempt your first lager. I would search "how to lager" on this forum and see what turns up for threads. Also do the same thing with a google search. Trust me, you don't want to go into this unprepared. Unfortunately, there is no substitute for doing the research to learn about the process. But it will feel great once you get everything straight.

I wouldn't drop your temp below 32 under any circumstances!

 

[teambarber]

okay, I'm pretty confident this will work. I'm going to pitch at 65-70F. let stand until fermentation kicks in.(a day) then I'm going to drop the temp down to 50-55F for about two weeks. Bring the temp up to about 65 for diacetyl rest for two-three days and then drop it back down to 40-45F for the rest(hopefully about 4 weeks) I see what everybody was talking about. Planning is key with lagering. wish me luck.

 

[passedpawn]

okay, I'm pretty confident this will work. I'm going to pitch at 65-70F. let stand until fermentation kicks in.(a day) then I'm going to drop the temp down to 50-55F for about two weeks. Bring the temp up to about 65 for diacetyl rest for two-three days and then drop it back down to 40-45F for the rest(hopefully about 4 weeks) I see what everybody was talking about. Planning is key with lagering. wish me luck.

Sounds great. I'm sure it will be a success.

The lagering at the end can be much colder - I go to 30F. Otherwise, that is exactly what I do (am doing now, in fact; I have 3 lagers at the d-rest now).

 

[BenS]

I've never done a lager, but why would you want to pitch at 65-70F? Why not just pitch at 50F?

 

[Yooper]

I've never done a lager, but why would you want to pitch at 65-70F? Why not just pitch at 50F?

Some people underpitch by not making a big enough starter, so they try to compensate by pitching too warm and dropping the temperature to the proper range once fermentation starts.

I'm not a fan of doing it that way, but some people do it. I don't pitch my ales 20 degrees too warm, and then let them drop either. I always pitch at (or slightly below) fermentation temperatures. In my opinion, that gives the best product.

 

[BenS]

I always pitch at (or slightly below) fermentation temperatures. In my opinion, that gives the best product.

Ok. I agree with pitching at fermentation temps. (Doesn't everyone?) But I still don't get why you would want to pitch warm to increase reproduction rates if you under pitch. Yeast don't reproduce at 50F?? It may take longer but I can't imagine the amount of esters those yeasties is going to throw out at 70F for the first 24 hrs! Just seems like you would unneccesarily hurt your beer.

 

[passedpawn]

I've never done a lager, but why would you want to pitch at 65-70F? Why not just pitch at 50F?

I've had lager yeast not start at 50. Hard to say why, but I remember watching a carboy that had no apparent activity for 2 days. I got really nervous and raised to to 60 for a day, saw activity, then brought it back down and it took off.

I think pitching at 50 will result in the best beer because it suppresses ester formation. In the summer, though, I can't get that low without ice, and I don't want to use ice. So I pitch at 70 and hope my chest freezer pulls it down before much fermentation has taken place. It gets to temp in about 6 hours (or less, I need to look at this better next time). I'm having pretty good success.

 

[Yooper]

That's true- some of us who use chillers just can't get below 70 degrees in the summer without a prechiller or something like that. My water today is just under 45 degrees, and so I didn't think about that.

Yeast seem to just go faster at higher temperatures- ale or lager yeast alike. Not that it'll produce the best flavor, but some of the most explosive ale ferments I've heard of are when the fermentation creeps up in the 80s. Yeast love the high temperatures- they'll reproduce faster, ferment faster, etc. But we control the temperature because of flavors associated with those high temperature ferments. That's why it's important to get the wort to the proper fermentation temperature before those flavors can be produced.

I often make yeast starters at room temperature- after all, my goal is to grow yeast, not make beer. The yeast does go faster at a higher temperature, from my own experience.

 

[BenS]

So I pitch at 70 and hope my chest freezer pulls it down before much fermentation has taken place. It gets to temp in about 6 hours (or less, I need to look at this better next time).

I swear I'm not trying to be rude or pick apart what works for you, just trying to learn because I'm doing my first lager with a buddy later today.
That being said, why not just put it in the fermentation chamber at 70F, pitch the yeast after a few hrs when it gets to 55-60F range and let it coast down to 50F after that? I guess it's just not making sense that a lager yeast would need a warm pitch temp.

 

[Wellshooter]

Even with a BIG starter I've had trouble getting fermentation to kick off if I pitched at 50 degrees. So now I figure, what the heck, the starter was made at room temperature so I just pitch it at room temperature then stick it my chest and the next morning the temp is 50 ish and krausen is forming. Beats the heck out of a 4 week fermentation or raising the temp to get it to finish. Both of which I have done.

A word of warning here though. I haven't had any luck with WL-GL-830. I had ester problems with all three attempts with it and the last time I pitched a large slurry with it and the wort at 45 and then warmed it up to 50. I have not used that strain since. Your results may differ from mine.

 

[BenS]

That's true- some of us who use chillers just can't get below 70 degrees in the summer without a prechiller or something like that.

I'm sorry to drag this on but wouldn't it be better for the end product(beer) to let the wort get down to pitching temp in the fermentation chamber before you added the yeast than to rush things and add the yeast while it's still a little to warm?

EDIT. Instead of carrying this thread on and on, I'm just going to start researching. Thanks for the useful replies yooper, passedpawn, wellshooter. If you have more info you think I should know, by all means, post or pm me.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

I know Yooper hates this, but there is no way I am going to make a three-gallon starter for five gallons of beer. That is just crazy, IMHO. The last lager I made (the bock I am drinking now) had an 1800 ml starter (that is roughly 1/2 gallon). and that was for ten gallons. I pitched at 65, and immediately put it on the floor in the basement, where the temp was around 50. Fermentation started at around 12 hours, the beer fermented out nicely, I did a d-rest, then kegged and lagered for about 6 weeks. And the beer is fantastic.

 

[osagedr]

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

I have a couple lagers coming up; guess I will make the biggest starters my stir plate can handle as cool as I can, put them in the fridge long enough for things to settle, then decant and pitch. My lagers haven't fermented out as well as I would like the last couple of times so I have to get enough yeast pitched next time.

 

[Yooper]

I know Yooper hates this, but there is no way I am going to make a three-gallon starter for five gallons of beer. That is just crazy, IMHO. The last lager I made (the bock I am drinking now) had an 1800 ml starter (that is roughly 1/2 gallon). and that was for ten gallons. I pitched at 65, and immediately put it on the floor in the basement, where the temp was around 50. Fermentation started at around 12 hours, the beer fermented out nicely, I did a d-rest, then kegged and lagered for about 6 weeks. And the beer is fantastic.

I'll tell you what- Bernie and I definitely don't agree on the pitching temperature or the amount of yeast to pitch!

But Bernie makes kick ass lagers, and no way would I say he is wrong.

What is hard is for newer lagermakers to know exactly when to lower the temp, and how quickly to get there. What I mean is if you gradually lower the temp from 70 to 50, the fermentation can be nearly over before you get to 50 degrees! Or, if you drop the temp too quickly, you can stall fermentation. It's a balancing act, but as you can see some of these other brewers have nailed their procedure and produce some fantastic lagers.

When I cold pitch a huge amount of yeast, I often don't even need to do a diacetyl rest. Of course, doing one is not hard and it's recommended to do one, especially with notorious diacetyl producers.

What works for me and what works for others differs. But we ALL pay close attention to fermentation temperatures and keeping it at the optimum temperature. None of us lager makers pitch the lager yeast and just let it go crazy. There is a method to our madness, and much of it comes from trial and error, and plenty of experience!

 

[passedpawn]

I'm sorry to drag this on but wouldn't it be better for the end product(beer) to let the wort get down to pitching temp in the fermentation chamber before you added the yeast than to rush things and add the yeast while it's still a little to warm?

I think this is a very good question. Maybe that is what I should do (I've considered it).

A brew session for me is usually 4 hours. It has a beginning and an end. That "end" includes yeast being pitched. Then I get on with my day. I like the tidiness of that schedule; I don't want to have to pitch the yeast later that night or in the morning. Yea, I'm rushing it perhaps.

I'm also not convinced that my pitching schedule has any affect on the result. Next 10g lager batch I do I'll split it into 2 5gallon fermenters and pitch one early (70F) and one after the wort has gotten to 50F. Then we'll see! I'll try to remember to report back.

 

[Wellshooter]

I know Yooper hates this, but there is no way I am going to make a three-gallon starter for five gallons of beer. That is just crazy, IMHO.

I agree, a 3 gallon starter is the same as knocking out to a yeast cake IMO, which has been thoroughly derided on this forum. Yet, knocking out to a yeast cake is what I have done to get the most consistent, trouble free lager fermentations. And I plan to do it again next week.

I have not entered any beer in competition, nor do I plan to, I just want good drinkable beer. For the technical aspects and expert advice ask someone else. All I can do is relate my experience.

 

[Bernie Brewer]

Lots of ways to skin a cat.

What is hard is for newer lagermakers to know exactly when to lower the temp, and how quickly to get there. What I mean is if you gradually lower the temp from 70 to 50, the fermentation can be nearly over before you get to 50 degrees! Or, if you drop the temp too quickly, you can stall fermentation. It's a balancing act, but as you can see some of these other brewers have nailed their procedure and produce some fantastic lagers.

When I cold pitch a huge amount of yeast, I often don't even need to do a diacetyl rest. Of course, doing one is not hard and it's recommended to do one, especially with notorious diacetyl producers.

What works for me and what works for others differs. But we ALL pay close attention to fermentation temperatures and keeping it at the optimum temperature. None of us lager makers pitch the lager yeast and just let it go crazy. There is a method to our madness, and much of it comes from trial and error, and plenty of experience!

Well said, both of you.

 

[duffman2]

The lagering at the end can be much colder - I go to 30F. Otherwise, that is exactly what I do (am doing now, in fact; I have 3 lagers at the d-rest now).

Just curious, how do you lager multiple beers at a time? Do you have multiple fermentation chambers? I don't see how you could do this in the same chamber when they have to be at different temps at the same time. I only have one keezer right now and have been wondering about this so I hope this wasn't too Thanks!

 

[passedpawn]

Just curious, how do you lager multiple beers at a time? Do you have multiple fermentation chambers? I don't see how you could do this in the same chamber when they have to be at different temps at the same time. I only have one keezer right now and have been wondering about this so I hope this wasn't too Thanks!

Actually, I have 2 ales and 3 lagers in there! You have to get the ales in first, let them ferment out for a week, then you can get the lagers in there. The ales go along for the ride, then after 3 days crashed at 30 they get bottled.

So, check this:

Week 1: 2 ales @ 65F (am. wheat, cream ale)
Week 2: 2 lagers @ 50F (german pils, two diff yeasts)
Week 3: 1 lager @ 50F (schwarzbier)
Week 5: diacetyl rest for 2 days, then crash down to 30F
Week 6: bottle ales
Week 8 or 9 or whenever: bottle lagers
​

 

[teambarber]

I ended up pitching at about 70F and then throwing it in the basement which is about 62-65F to cool down slowly and sit for a night. I'm going to put it in the fridge which is showing me 59F in a little bit and drop it to about 55F. so it should hit that by late tonight. I see you guys talking about pitching temps and now I'm like . but at least we can all agree on drinking them right!

 

[teambarber]

lager was successful!!! after dropping down to about 55F I lowered it over a week to about 40-44F and let it sit since then I kegged it about two weeks ago and it is delicious!!! thanks for the advice. It really wasn't as difficult as I thought it was going to be. It really conditioned up nice and NO yeast haze at all. Nice and clear( I can see through the glass)

 

[passedpawn]

Love the Quint avatar.

 

[duffman2]

Actually, I have 2 ales and 3 lagers in there! You have to get the ales in first, let them ferment out for a week, then you can get the lagers in there. The ales go along for the ride, then after 3 days crashed at 30 they get bottled.

So, check this:

Week 1: 2 ales @ 65F (am. wheat, cream ale)
Week 2: 2 lagers @ 50F (german pils, two diff yeasts)
Week 3: 1 lager @ 50F (schwarzbier)
Week 5: diacetyl rest for 2 days, then crash down to 30F
Week 6: bottle ales
Week 8 or 9 or whenever: bottle lagers
​

Sweet. That's a great schedule. I gotta try that out

 

[passedpawn]

Sweet. That's a great schedule. I gotta try that out

For the record, the ales (wheat and cream ale) came out excellent.