First lager: pitching rate seems insane?!

[pohldogg]

I'd say the real problem here is the definition of good beer. I've under pitched, over pitched, and correctly pitched. For me the proper pitched beers were usually the winners. I've tasted my share of homebrew, and the ones that were good never came from brewers that said "just toss in some yeast, it doesn't matter how much". Maybe I'm skeptical, but I'm not too sure about taking the word of some guy on a forum that contradicts standard practice by saying that my beer's good. I could ferment a whole batch with the dregs from a single bottle and eventually get a big yeast cake, but it's probably not the best plan. Sorry Drew, not saying you're lying but I can't taste a picture.

 

[MrManifesto]

All that work and experimentation, and the average joe (maybe not even so average, since MrManifesto seems pretty damn smart, to me) felt he was lucky to be able to properly identify even one of the beers.

Thanks for the compliment!

I will mention here that all of those beers were light struck and the teacher told us so, so that may have been a reason I mixed them up. They all tasted somewhat skunky. You could definitely tell something was up with the under and over pitched beers. My taste buds may not have known the difference between them, but there was a very real effect of having too much or too little yeast.

 

[Yooper]

Here is my "underpitched" pilsner.... One smack pack and pint sized starter the night before pitching.... in a twelve gallon batch..

yup that yeast just could not handle it.... And it tastes so horrible.... I think dump it... hahahahahahahahaha.

This yeast replicated and more than compensated to fully ferment the batch. I saved money and time. I have very good beer. Sorry mr. malty and the blowhards

Let's see- you're denigrating the scientific findings of Fix and Narziss, making fun of people who are professional brewers and award winning amateurs, who find that pitching the proper amount of yeast into a beer provides great beer.

You're not backing ANY of your claims up with any sort of evidence, scientific or otherwise, besides you once made a big yeast cake and you say that the beer is good. I don't see your NHC medals for your lagers hanging in that picture of the yeast cake.

To top it all off, you've been calling others "blowhards" and "captain know it all".

You may be right, or you may be wrong.

All you've proven so far is you're a dick with a big mouth. Who may or may not make good beer.

 

[Malticulous]

The proper pitch rate is the one that makes the beer you want. It take's experience with the same wort and the same strain. It's a big part of formulating a recipe and repeating it.

 

[MrManifesto]

I'm also not sure how making a starter requires so much more money. A bag of dme is like $3 and I can make a few starters from it. My stir plate was $35. That's not crazy money. I like doing homebrew stuff so the added time is sort of a bonus, I'm not just trying to crank out batches.

If you're serious about wanting to convert people to your line of thinking, perhaps being an arrogant ********* isn't the way to go. Provide some proof. As another poster quoted, the microbiologist whose class I went to seemed to be convinced that pitching rates were important and even mentioned mr malty as being a good resource. He was a pretty damn smart guy and had a lot of proof to back himself up. Where's yours?

 

[BrewKnurd]

Sorry Drew, not saying you're lying but I can't taste a picture.

in one corner, we have the pitching rate calculator of a multiple ninkasi winner turned pro brewer... And in the other corner we have that picture. tough call for me.

 

[eastoak]

No. I am advocating practical and cost effective brewing practices. You can purchase 8 vials of yeast at $6-$8 each or make a batch of beer before you make a batch of beer--when making massive starters--but it is not necessary.

You probably buy high test gasoline too... But your car engine will run perfectly fine on the cheap stuff.

I have worked in this industry in the past--including a homebrew shop when I was younger... Anytime I wanted to get an extra $20 or $100 dollars out of customer--I would say, "it will make better beer." It was a total canard and just plainly a sales pitch. I knew perfectly well, some of the best beer ever made, is done so as cheaply as possible.

What I am advocating is nothing more than what most homebrewers do anyway. From years of experience selling products. And guess what--> it works. And it saves time and money.

Factors (such as pitch rates) that are important to commercial operations--simply are not all that important to small homebrew batches. Especially, when you are just tossing the yeast afterwards--which, by far, most homebrewers do.

You can easily get away with pitching smaller active amounts of yeast than "mr malty," apparently the god of homebrew pitch rates, recommends.

This is not poor brewing process, nor does pitching at "mr. malties" rates create better beer.

My advise is practical and cost effective. Don't like it--don't take it.... But for those new to the hobby--> don't listen to the blowhards telling you to spend a fortune on yeast--> in the name of "better beer." Like I said before, that is simply a marketing ploy to get customers to rationalize separating themselves from their money.

More likely with new brewers--> you will infect your beer by not being sanitary stepping up starters 20 times. I have seen it many times working at a homebrew shop.

By the way, what is "better beer" anyway? That justification is thrown around on this forum pretty liberally. Again, usually when someone spends a lot of needless effort or money into a batch of beer. "Better beer" is a completely subjective phrase and has nothing to with "science."

Not saying don't spend all the time and money you want in this hobby-->that makes it fun.... And padded my pockets when I was younger.

But don't make outrageous claims that your beer is "better" because you pitched more yeast than someone else.

it's all about being fast and cheap for you but not for many other home brewers. and i have a question for you: if you got all of your yeast for free from a local brewery (like i do) would you increase your pitch rates, or are you just dead set against pitching more yeast than you think should be pitched? in other words are you trying to save money or yeast?

 

[Butter]

Don't know why everyone's jumping on DrewBrew, he's just stating his opinion. Oops, am I a dick or a ********* because I didn't trash him? Lighten up people, its just beer.

 

[Yooper]

Don't know why everyone's jumping on DrewBrew, he's just stating his opinion. Oops, am I a dick or a ********* because I didn't trash him? Lighten up people, its just beer.

Nah, not trashing him at all for his opinion. This is a forum, and opinions are what make it work.

The first few posts were fine, and appreciated. It was the namecalling and arrogance that irritated people.

 

[Sulli]

Look. Geek out all you want. Spend your time counting yeast cells. Boring, stupid, waste of time and money. I have done enough of it (they had to pay me to do so). It is totally unnecessary and will not make better homebrew beer--> except in your mind. The homebrew shop will appreciate you buying the extra yeast and/or equipment. The "experts" will appreciate you buying their books telling you to do so.

There is no "correct amount." Just like there is no correct brewing method.

Telling someone newer to brewing that they have to use "Mr. Malty" or their beer will turn out bad is asinine.

Pitch an active starter, begun from a vile or smack pack, and you will make good beer.

I believe this might be the post that got the ball rolling.

 

[Ozzfest05]

I'm here to bring everyone back to reality.
It's Christmas, now everyone shut the heck up and bring some positive good spirited attitude to this thread.

I think for myself I can't justify buying several vials of liquid yeast for one beer. Imagine buying 5 vials for one 5-6 gal batch the yeast would cost double the grain bill. I would step up a starter however like I said I don't buy liquid it's expensive in Canada.

I would like to promote s-23 again though great, easy and cheap lager yeast. I don't promote bad brewing, I like doing things right. I just know some people think it's all grain or nothing, liquid yeast or nothing.
I've made extract better than my ag , so you know keep an open mind I know several breweries who use dry yeast.
You wouldn't know it as the beer is fantastic.


Merry Christmas

 

[ArcaneXor]

I don't like all the name-calling that happens when people disagree on the forums, but after reading Drew's latest post - consider yourself name-called.

Over 85% of the time a customer brings in a beer "that don't taste right" to the homebrew shop I work at, the problem is either infection, lack of temp control or underattenuation. In the latter case, people usually didn't pitch enough yeast, i.e. tossed in a liquid vial without making a starter or not rehydrating dry yeast. If you are a good, experienced brewer, you can compensate for what Mr. Malty would consider underpitching by making recipe and process adjustments to a large extent, although the ester profile will almost always differ (and, as you stated, not always for the worse). Nor do you need to pitch 10 vials of yeast if you build, split and oxygenate your starters perfectly to maximize your "growth factor". But to a new lager brewer lacking that experience, spending that extra money on more yeast or a larger starter is the safest way to prevent problems down the road. If you have truly worked at a homebrew shop, you know how difficult it is to treat underattenuation problems after the fact without resorting to methods that will significantly change the character of the beer to something that is either thin, vinous or funky.

 

[just2brew]

IMO, drew does have a point. If time and money are scarce, but it is up to the brewer. I like to use Mr.Malty as a guideline. Making a starter and getting half way to where one should be is still better then not making a starter at all. If the time is available I attempt the correct pitching rate. Time is not replaceable. When a weekend is available to brew, I go for it.

I have screwed up pitching yeast many times and try to learn from my mistakes. I find taste problems with my beers, but friends and family enjoy and compliment..... then go back for more. Perhaps "Good Beer" is about who you want to impress? I just try to make the next batch better. Beer is my hobby that I use to relax. Carving methods in stone about "the right way to brew" only creates stress. At one point in time it was thought long primaries were wrong.

If drew likes the way his beer tastes I'd drink it, then decide if I would open another
Taste is in the tongue of the beholder....

 

[bwomp313]

I vote sticky??

 

[Bruin]

I did my first Marzen last spring, 5g batch with a Wyeast pack. Pitched yeast at about 70 deg. At first sign of fermentation, I put the fermenter in my keezer at 48 deg, where it stayed about a month. Lagered all summer after a D-rest, and everyone raved about it when I served it at my Octoberfest. Next time I'll probably do a starter, only because everyone says you should when doing low temp ferms.

 

[billtzk]

Man, I wish I could do a lager. One of these days I'm going to buy a freezer big enough to hold my conical and try it. But first I gotta figure out where I could possibly fit another freezer in my house.

 

[Vernacular]

My first lager was a Mr. Beer kit (3 of them actually) that I bought at BJ's on a whim. Started slow... wasn't very exciting ferment. It did however turn out to be quite tasty. I harvested and washed the yeast... (another first). I used one jar of the slurry in a starter wort from dry extract and pitched it into an altered Cream of Three Crops Ale. Was much more active than the lager was... and a great brew to boot. Moral of the story: it worked, without calling in a rocket scientist for advice.

 

[user 70770]

I'm just gonna throw my 2 cents out there. I think the pitching rates from mr malty are the "safe" pitching rates. My last beer was a pilsner. OG at 1.048, pitched a vial of WLP830 at 55F without doing a starter. Once the fermentation seemed to be going, dropped the temp to 50F. After primary and lager phases, final gravity was 1.010. Taste test reveal a super clean beer with no off flavors.

Anecdotal evidence you say? You bet!!! Will I be following mr malty's pitching rates from now on? Nope. Now I won't go and tell someone to not pitch Mr Malty's recommended amounts of yeast. I think if you can afford to pitch more yeast, you probably should. But my sanitation techniques are very meticulous and I have good temp control so I can get away with producing fine beer with far less yeast to start out with.

 

[BrewKnurd]

But my sanitation techniques are very meticulous and I have good temp control so I can get away with producing fine beer with far less yeast to start out with.

I'm not saying this to contradict your experiences, as I'm glad you've had success. That disclaimer aside, there are potential issues involved in low pitch rates that are not prevented by sanitation or temp control issues, so just having those things down pat does not mean you won't run into issues due to low pitch rates. But they certainly help.

 

[user 70770]

I'm not saying this to contradict your experiences, as I'm glad you've had success. That disclaimer aside, there are potential issues involved in low pitch rates that are not prevented by sanitation or temp control issues, so just having those things down pat does not mean you won't run into issues due to low pitch rates. But they certainly help.

You're absolutely right. There's more to it than sanitation and temp control. Not only does the attenuation matter, but the attenuation rate or how fast it reaches final gravity. The longer the yeast takes to reach FG, the longer it has to be subject to increasingly stressful environment which means increased response to the stress by production of off flavors.

One of these days, I will try a strong lager like a doppelbock which is probably the least forgiving for homebrews and underpitch quite a bit. I'll try like 2 vials of yeast plus a 2L starter and see if I can make a clean tasting beer given those initial conditions. Hell, maybe I'll do it next month just for the heck of it.

 

[periwinkle1239]

I brewed a 5 gal 1.080 OG doppelbock yesterday. I spent the last 8 days making and building up a starter. (I don't have a stir plate, but swirled her around throughout the week). After I cold crashed for 24 hours @ 33 degrees, I had almost 1" of yeast in the 1 gallon growler which was almost completely full of spent wort. I have no idea if that was enough or too much but it sure looked like plenty so I decanted and pitched the whole thing.

It's been less than 24 hours and I see signs of krausen (temp is 48-50 degrees)!

Cheers!

 

[Malticulous]

Kaiser made a chart with Narziss's suggested pitch rates based on the slurry volume. I marked my jug so I can get a reasonable count on the pitch rate. Mr. Malty's cell counts for starter volumes are very close. I play with it until it puts out the number I want to figure the necessary starter size by entering a lower OG. It's not very hard to just guess now.



For a bock I repitch slurry from a pilsner or schwarzbier. I have one fermenting now. I'll also make another pilsner soon to keep my culture alive and healthy for a helles bock next month. I don't like to store yeast very long and I don't like to make starters. The yeast from the bocks will be trashed.

 

[MaynardX]

I believe this might be the post that got the ball rolling.

Damn. And I hoped it was mine for some odd reason! I think most everyone is missing the point. You CAN underpitch and it will make beer. It might even make decent beer. I don't think anyone is arguing that point. But, I believe if you want to make that beer the best it can be, you must be close to the correct pitch rate. Especially with lagers! This is why they have pitch rates for crying out loud!

 

[Darwin18]

Exactly.