First Flanders Red - Not "Bretty" Enough?

[J_Flint]

Title says it all. I brewed a small 1 gallon batch of Flanders Red Ale on December 24 of 2019. It has been aging since. Dregs from a bottle of kriek, a Brett pale ale, and another sour I can't recall were pitched after primary fermentation. I know all three of these cultures were unpasteurized and should have been viable.

Anyway, the beer tastes great. Nice sharp acidity with a bit of acetic/vinegar flavor. Just what I was going for. Unfortunately it lacks that barnyardy, Brett flavor I was so looking forward to. I'm wondering if I should just bottle and let it age longer, leave it in the fermenter longer, or pitch some more Brett?

For anybody recommending new Brett culture what should I use? I'm an experienced brewed, but this is my first sour so it's still a bit uncharted territory for me. Thanks!

EDIT- With it being such a small batch I wonder if dregs from a single bottle of Orval would help?

Also, I know Brett works slowly. How long is typical to wait for moderate to strong Brett flavor?

 

[TheMadKing]

So the beauty of Flanders red is that it's traditionally a blended beer.

Make another batch that's higher in the Brett department and then blend them to get the flavor you're after.

Also, are you adding oak? That's a standard flavor component of the style (low vanilla, wine-like) and may help to fill the flavor your missing partially. Barnyards/Brett flavor is not a flavor normally associated with the style, so if you're brewing to style, I would say strong brett isn't necessarily appropriate, but the guidelines aren't everything and I love a good barnyardy Brett beer

I'm not a Brett expert and my experience is limited to 2 cider and a mead, but I had Brett flavor develop in a couple weeks. I like omega's various Brett blends personally. And if you pitched only the dregs from a bottle into it, I think that might be your main issue. You may just need more cells in an environment as hostile as a high abv sour beer

 

[J_Flint]

Well it was dregs from 3 bottles in a 1 gallon batch. And from what I've read, Brett only needs minimal cells to rear its head in the flavor department.

I really don't want to brew another batch currently and wait another 6 months to a year just for the sake of blending the two. I would really like to be able to enjoy this sour sooner than that as it's been 6 months already.

I have not added any oak and don't plan to for a couple reasons:

It's a teeny tiny batch, I wanted to keep this experiment as simple as possible, and I'm not crazy about oaked beers. If that means it isn't technically a Flanders that's fine with me.

My main objective is to create a finished beer with this one gallon, and then pitch the cake from this one gallon, into a full new batch whenever the current one is finished.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you want to add another culture I would suggest Jolly Pumpkin dregs. The Brett strains in their beers are very barnyard-forward and the produce plenty of flavor even after the beer has soured.

There's probably nothing else you can do besides blending at this point.

How long is typical to wait for moderate to strong Brett flavor?

Anywhere from 1 to 36 months or more.

 

[J_Flint]

Okay. Hard to find around here but I will look. How about Orval?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Okay. Hard to find around here but I will look. How about Orval?

Sorry, couldn't tell you. However, in my experience, the acidity mutes flavor from almost every culture.

I could mail a culture if you need it.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Maybe adding the Orval brett for bottling can work, as Brett sometimes behaves differently in bottle when carbonating but it will be slow and maybe the results aren't to your taste once they are carbonated

 

[J_Flint]

Sorry, couldn't tell you. However, in my experience, the acidity mutes flavor from almost every culture.

I could mail a culture if you need it.

How would you go about doing that without worry of the summer heat. Not sure where you're at but it's ~90s here in NE Ohio.

 

[J_Flint]

Maybe adding the Orval brett for bottling can work, as Brett sometimes behaves differently in bottle when carbonating but it will be slow and maybe the results aren't to your taste once they are carbonated

I considered bottling because of that way Brett behaves. If I had more than a few bottles worth I would just lay them up for a while and open one every few months. Agh. Maybe I should just brew another batch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How would you go about doing that without worry of the summer heat. Not sure where you're at but it's ~90s here in NE Ohio.

Same as any online store that sells yeast. I'm on the west side of Cleveland, so you aren't that far away.

 

[mashpaddled]

How would you go about doing that without worry of the summer heat. Not sure where you're at but it's ~90s here in NE Ohio.

What do you think happens to all the yeast in the ambient environment at those temperatures?

 

[monkeymath]

How about Orval?

Orval dregs are a great source imho. I haven't yet tried other Brett cultures, but the dregs from a single bottle of Orval can transform 2 gallons (probably even more) of even a high abv beer.

Imperial Stout? Yeah, okay.
Brett Imperial Stout? HELL YEAH!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Orval dregs are a great source imho.

He was asking whether it fares well producing flavor in a beer that's already sour.

 

[monkeymath]

He was asking whether it fares well producing flavor in a beer that's already sour.

Thank you for rephrasing the title of this thread.

Sarcasm aside, I honestly find it difficult to determine the exact intention of this "reply" - I am guessing that you are objecting to my statement? Because the beer is "already sour"? Does the low pH impede Brett? And, if so, how? And then how can any sour be brett-y, when brett are so slow and the lactos have already dropped the pH before it really gets going?

It'd be great if you could share a bit more of your knowledge.
Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thank you for rephrasing the title of this thread.

Sarcasm isn't needed.

Does the low pH impede Brett?

Yes, low pH impedes yeast flavor production. That's why it's an important detail.

And then how can any sour be brett-y, when brett are so slow and the lactos have already dropped the pH before it really gets going?

Traditional sour beer has a lot of hops to prevent the LAB from souring the beer before significant Brett flavor has developed. Furthermore beers from different barrels are blended to achieve the finished profile -- e.g. a particularly sour beer is mixed with very flavorful but minimally sour beer.

The "modern" method described on my wiki staggers the pitch to delay souring until Brett flavor has developed.
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer

 

[AMessenger]

Depending on your cultures, you could continue to see development of Brett character years into bottling. I was recently surprised to find a Flanders Red that had been bottled in 2016 had evolved from a fairly fruity beer (like you’d expect a Flanders Red to be) to a much more earthy and leathery Brett focused beer (more like a Gueuze). This was with Roeselare.

i think the best advise for anyone brewing aged sour beer would be to brew multiple beers. You have a better chance to exert influence on a series of beers than you do on any one beer that is mostly fermented already