First BIAB day...in the garage.

[wilserbrewer]

It doesn't really matter...

Let it carb up and taste it. Let it cold condition and taste it. Taste one of the bottles in a week or two. Taste it once a week for 8 weeks, if you still hate it toss it or let is sit for a few months.
Rdwhahb

 

[BrunDog]

Let it age a bit. Wheat beers can be funky at first as those yeasts do not flocculate out quickly. Give it two weeks under pressure at cold temp, then give it a proper taste.

 

[The_Bishop]

In the one pic you showed, the burner was on while mashing. Were you stirring while you were adding heat? If not it's very possible that the bottom of the mash became hot enough to extract tannins, especially if your mash PH was a bit too high.

 

[CajunChuck]

I was keeping at 153 while stirring every 10 minutes and then cut the heat off once it hit again. I had a basket in so it was never sitting on the bottom.

 

[The_Bishop]

The issue isn't the grain on the bottom of the kettle, the problem is adding heat without stirring, you end up with very stratified temps. The top of the kettle, where you had the thermometer may have been 153, but the temperature of the wort under that basket may well have been 180+ along with the bottom of your mash. You need to stir continuously while adding heat.

The other issue is the basket adds a barrier to your stirring, so there's no easy way to incorporate the heat trapped in the wort at the bottom of the kettle. You don't really need the basket, honestly. If you stir continuously while adding heat gently, there's no need for it and the bag will not scorch. Also, if you put the lid back on the kettle it'll hold temps much better.

 

[CajunChuck]

The issue isn't the grain on the bottom of the kettle, the problem is adding heat without stirring, you end up with very stratified temps. The top of the kettle, where you had the thermometer may have been 153, but the temperature of the wort under that basket may well have been 180+ along with the bottom of your mash. You need to stir continuously while adding heat.

The other issue is the basket adds a barrier to your stirring, so there's no easy way to incorporate the heat trapped in the wort at the bottom of the kettle. You don't really need the basket, honestly. If you stir continuously while adding heat gently, there's no need for it and the bag will not scorch. Also, if you put the lid back on the kettle it'll hold temps much better.

Yes, I stirred the entire time I had heat on from bottom upwards. It was a first time BIAB and "all grain" at that so figured I would not lose any sleep if I botched it up. It was only $20 for the grain in total. I thought if I had the basket in there it would make it easier for me to lift the grain out and drain. This was not the case. The latter/pulley system discussed earlier in this thread is the ticket.

My next attempt at all grain will be using my 10Ga Igloo cooler system I have set up. I am currently in the process of reviewing tons of stuff posted on here, specifically Yooper's Oatmeal Stout as I am a huge fan of stouts and brown ales.

 

[RM-MN]

Yes, I stirred the entire time I had heat on from bottom upwards. It was a first time BIAB and "all grain" at that so figured I would not lose any sleep if I botched it up. It was only $20 for the grain in total. I thought if I had the basket in there it would make it easier for me to lift the grain out and drain. This was not the case. The latter/pulley system discussed earlier in this thread is the ticket.

My next attempt at all grain will be using my 10Ga Igloo cooler system I have set up. I am currently in the process of reviewing tons of stuff posted on here, specifically Yooper's Oatmeal Stout as I am a huge fan of stouts and brown ales.

Before you go to the Igloo cooler system, try one more with the bag of grains in the pot but this time don't use the basket and don't add any heat. Bring the water to strike temp, stir in the grains really well to get rid of any temperature stratification, put the lid on and igonore it for the mash period. If you have iodine you can test for any starch remaining and decide from that if you need a longer mash but I only mash for 30 minutes. At that time I can no longer detect any starch remaining in the grist so I know that conversion is complete and can pull the grains out and start heating the wort.

 

[The_Bishop]

RM-MN, you're a pretty sharp guy, but do everyone a favor and stop telling every new brewer that they should do an abbreviated mash. You may have good results from it being as you mill your own grain into a near flour state, but most new brewers are using pre-milled grain that isn't that finely ground.

On your whole iodine test being negative at 30 minutes... You know you can get a false negative on that test, right? If you're using conventionally milled grain, you can have a negative result at 30 minutes, too. But stir your grain bed and check again... You'll show starch. That's because it takes time for the saccharified sugars to slough off and expose new starch if you're not stirring or recirculating the mash. Most BIAB brewers aren't. A longer mash gives the time needed for that to happen. Also, most new BIAB brewers aren't working with their water chemistry and mash PH. That can lead to a further slowdown of conversion which again, will cause issues with a short mash.

I know you mean well and all, but it seems that every other post from you is, "HEY GUYS! YOU ONLY NEED TO MASH FOR LIKE 45 SECONDS!"

 

[RM-MN]

RM-MN, you're a pretty sharp guy, but do everyone a favor and stop telling every new brewer that they should do an abbreviated mash. You may have good results from it being as you mill your own grain into a near flour state, but most new brewers are using pre-milled grain that isn't that finely ground.

On your whole iodine test being negative at 30 minutes... You know you can get a false negative on that test, right? If you're using conventionally milled grain, you can have a negative result at 30 minutes, too. But stir your grain bed and check again... You'll show starch. That's because it takes time for the saccharified sugars to slough off and expose new starch if you're not stirring or recirculating the mash. Most BIAB brewers aren't. A longer mash gives the time needed for that to happen. Also, most new BIAB brewers aren't working with their water chemistry and mash PH. That can lead to a further slowdown of conversion which again, will cause issues with a short mash.

I know you mean well and all, but it seems that every other post from you is, "HEY GUYS! YOU ONLY NEED TO MASH FOR LIKE 45 SECONDS!"

How about you go tell the LHBS to mill their grain properly. Lots of the people using conventional mash tuns are getting poor efficiency due to poor milling. People should not have to put up with that. Most of the time I tell people to use the iodine test I tell them to test the grist, not just the wort. The wort should always test negative at 30 minutes. If not, go back to point one, the grains are not properly milled. Or maybe I should just tell everyone that they need to do a 90 to 120 minute mash just to make sure that the ones with poorly milled grains get as much conversion as possible.

 

[The_Bishop]

How about you go tell the LHBS to mill their grain properly. Lots of the people using conventional mash tuns are getting poor efficiency due to poor milling. People should not have to put up with that. Most of the time I tell people to use the iodine test I tell them to test the grist, not just the wort. The wort should always test negative at 30 minutes. If not, go back to point one, the grains are not properly milled. Or maybe I should just tell everyone that they need to do a 90 to 120 minute mash just to make sure that the ones with poorly milled grains get as much conversion as possible.

How about you define 'properly'? In your setup, for your process, ultra-fine milling works. FOR YOU and YOUR SETUP. BIAB, right?

However, the same grind in a conventional mash/lauter tun at comventional mash thicknesses would result in a horribly stuck mash with the consistency of porridge. A crush with the consistency of grits, however, works in both setups. You just can't mash for 3.8 minutes and call it a day.

I work part-time in a LHBS. It gets busy. You know what we can't do? Adjust the mill for every different customer. It takes too long and causes more wear and tear on the mill. Also, if you leave the gap too small and start milling, you just ruined somebody's grain bill and the shop eats the cost of the grains and/or maybe loses a customer because we screwed their bre day up with a stuck mash. The mill gets set for a middle-of-the-road setting, that works decently across the board for all our customers.

That's reality.

There's another reason to mash longer, and that's flavor extraction from the specialty grains. Too short of a time results in lesser extraction and flavor from specialty grains. This is something we've directly experimented with and experienced at the shop.

Maybe it's not your place to tell *anyone* how they should mash? I'm not a big one for 'dogma' and advocating things just because 'that's the way we've always done it' but there are good reasons for some brewing practices, and what makes you happy with your beer may not work for everyone else.

 

[RM-MN]

How about you define 'properly'? In your setup, for your process, ultra-fine milling works. FOR YOU and YOUR SETUP. BIAB, right?

However, the same grind in a conventional mash/lauter tun at comventional mash thicknesses would result in a horribly stuck mash with the consistency of porridge. A crush with the consistency of grits, however, works in both setups. You just can't mash for 3.8 minutes and call it a day.

I work part-time in a LHBS. It gets busy. You know what we can't do? Adjust the mill for every different customer. It takes too long and causes more wear and tear on the mill. Also, if you leave the gap too small and start milling, you just ruined somebody's grain bill and the shop eats the cost of the grains and/or maybe loses a customer because we screwed their bre day up with a stuck mash. The mill gets set for a middle-of-the-road setting, that works decently across the board for all our customers.

That's reality.

There's another reason to mash longer, and that's flavor extraction from the specialty grains. Too short of a time results in lesser extraction and flavor from specialty grains. This is something we've directly experimented with and experienced at the shop.

Maybe it's not your place to tell *anyone* how they should mash? I'm not a big one for 'dogma' and advocating things just because 'that's the way we've always done it' but there are good reasons for some brewing practices, and what makes you happy with your beer may not work for everyone else.

You did notice that we're posting in the BIAB section, not in the conventional mash tun section? I rarely post in the section that is dedicated to the conventional mash tun people and I don't tell them that they must mash for only 30 minutes. I may suggest that they try it and I might tell them that they need to use an iodine test with some of the grist to determine if they have full conversion.

If your milling ends up with a grist like grits the conversion is likely to be done in less than 30 minutes and so will flavor extraction. Not every LHBS does so well with their milling. Some have their mills set so wide that the people using their grains only get 50 to 60% efficiency. Customers shouldn't have to put up with that.

I'll often advocate that people get their own mills so they can set it to best work with their system. If they are BIAB, I suggest that they set it as fine as they can get the grain to go through as that will get them the best efficiency and conversion will be done very quickly.

I have experimented with much shorter mash periods and found what you said, that the specialty grains take longer to give up their flavors. With my finely milled grains that flavor extraction takes less than 20 minutes but more than 10. I don't like cut that too fine so I tell people to mash for 30 minutes even though the flavor in my mash is extracted in less than 20 minutes.

Your LHBS may be too busy to change the setting on the mill between customers but not every one is like that. Some have plenty of time but refuse to change even if their milling is substandard. Some are willing to accommodate differences in peoples wants. Those are the LHBS's that people should frequent and should shun ones that do a poor job and refuse to change. Many inexperienced brewers don't know that they are getting a poor job and need to be guided. I try to guide people in the BIAB forum to make changes to improve their system. If that requires them to get their own mill I do push them toward that.

You are right in that my method will not work for everyone....but it can and if nobody mentions it or pushes people to try they won't even suspect that it is possible. I started with a 60 minute mash just like most people do but I was willing to make some changes and try some different things to see how they worked out. I try hard to document what works and what doesn't so other people don't have to travel the same path.

 

[CajunChuck]

Before you go to the Igloo cooler system, try one more with the bag of grains in the pot but this time don't use the basket and don't add any heat. Bring the water to strike temp, stir in the grains really well to get rid of any temperature stratification, put the lid on and igonore it for the mash period. If you have iodine you can test for any starch remaining and decide from that if you need a longer mash but I only mash for 30 minutes. At that time I can no longer detect any starch remaining in the grist so I know that conversion is complete and can pull the grains out and start heating the wort.

OH don't worry, I will do some more BIAB. I have been stalling out on the cereal killer or a proper grain mill. I put in a group buy order with the local HBC in my town so don't have a choice anymore. I have not had a chance to meet any of the peeps yet but will soon enough.

I will also do some all-grain brews using my cooler setup. I didn't spend money on it for nothing.

I'm cool with both you guy's suggestions. I take everything with a grain of salt. I am sure I will experience with a bunch of mill widths along the way. I do have about 75lbs of grain headed my way. =)

 

[UndeadFred]

If you are going to continue to BIAB or use a voile curtain panel in a cooler, then you can grind fine and you don't need a fancy grinder.

The issue with needing a good roller mill for a traditional grain bed filter is that you need fairly consistent particle sizes. That requirement goes away when using a mesh filter like a bag. So screw your LHBS (many intentionally grind too coarse to sell more grain) and spend $40 on a Corona mill and a bucket. a 13mm bolt and a drill will run it as fast and any medium quality roller mill as well.

You can grind finer for BIAB and get efficiencies that taste fine in the 80's.. many of us do it all the time.

It's so much better than relying on someone else to crush and the crushed grain is fresher that way.. like 15 minutes old...

 

[wilserbrewer]

The issue with needing a good roller mill for a traditional grain bed filter is that you need fairly consistent particle sizes. That requirement goes away when using a mesh filter like a bag. So screw your LHBS (many intentionally grind too coarse to sell more grain) and spend $40 on a Corona mill and a bucket. a 13mm bolt and a drill will run it as fast and any medium quality roller mill as well.

...

I kinda disagree here Fred, my corona crush works fine in a traditional mash tun and BIAB.

I give a thorough crush like a coarse corn meal, sparges fine in a MT with a braid. I feel it would be fine for a FB as well.

I just don't think it's accurate to suggest a corona is somewhat limited to BIAB, and a more expensive roller mill has an advantage w other methods.

I just don't see it IME.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I work part-time in a LHBS. It gets busy. You know what we can't do? Adjust the mill for every different customer. It takes too long and causes more wear and tear on the mill. Also, if you leave the gap too small and start milling, you just ruined somebody's grain bill and the shop eats the cost of the grains and/or maybe loses a customer because we screwed their bre day up with a stuck mash. The mill gets set for a middle-of-the-road setting, that works decently across the board for all our customers.

That's reality.

There's another reason to mash longer, and that's flavor extraction from the specialty grains. Too short of a time results in lesser extraction and flavor from specialty grains. This is something we've directly experimented with and experienced at the shop.

Setting aside your guys' feud...

RE: Mill gap. I've seen some terrible milling at lots of lhbs, recently I visited one with a mill gap just short of 0.060. Was the worst I've ever seen. IMO as long as you're providing a good enough mill gap for conventional brewers to achieve at least 92% conversion in a 1.055 brew at a thickness of 1.25-1.75 in an hour then you're milling is adequate. Yes I would prefer to have an adjustable mill, but that's just icing for the minority of customers that are aware of the benefits and associated risks (stuck sparges)

RE: Specialty grains. I've seen this topic come out two ways, specialty grains flavor contributions are not tied to conversion and as such should be used at a lb per gallon rate. Conversely I've seen arguments where it is tied to time/conversion/milling/whatever, and as such should be scaled with efficiency.

However I've never seen any actual proof/data/taste testing etc of either argument, just vehement defense of their point of view. Do you have any write ups, proof, articles, recent publications that have credence?

 

[slym2none]

I get my LHBS to double-crush my grain. It ends up slightly floury, and all the grains are crushed/cracked but not broken into pieces. I am tempted to take the grains that aren't broken up & put them in my Cuisinart to get them broken up more, but I've ended up at at least 75% efficiency with a 75-minute mash. So, I'll just spend a few more minutes relaxing during my mash until, one day, I get my own mill.

I brew late at night anyway, so 15-20 minutes extra doesn't bother me. I am a night owl. (He types at 3:05 AM with half a beer left to drink)

 

[RM-MN]

OH don't worry, I will do some more BIAB. I have been stalling out on the cereal killer or a proper grain mill. I put in a group buy order with the local HBC in my town so don't have a choice anymore. I have not had a chance to meet any of the peeps yet but will soon enough.

I will also do some all-grain brews using my cooler setup. I didn't spend money on it for nothing.

I'm cool with both you guy's suggestions. I take everything with a grain of salt. I am sure I will experience with a bunch of mill widths along the way. I do have about 75lbs of grain headed my way. =)

You could use that cooler for something else so you don't feel like you wasted money on it. Something like...um...maybe keeping beer cool?

 

[UndeadFred]

I would use my Corona in a traditional mash tun if I had one but I was pointing out the actual difference between the cheap grinder and one that is a minimum of 3x more in price. I did some comparisons and experiments early on. For a grain bed filter the roller is superior. Corona is certainly okay though, obviously it works. If you BIAB the Corona is all you ever need however, and that was my point. All the advantages of the roller mills are moot with the filter material. My experience analog is a coffee grinder. VERY important to have consistent crush in Espresso and French Press, not so much with drip and a paper filter. But I am picky I suppose.