First Attempt w/Bru'n Water for an IPA

[pshankstar]

So I have been reading a lot about how adjusting your water for all-grain or BIAB is important, well very important. I am waiting for the county to release their water report first before I get my own testing done. So in the mean time, I have been using spring water but found that I can get RO water a lot cheaper (about 0.35 per gallon). So with that being said, I have downloaded the free version of Bru'n Water and read through the instructions within the document (on top of all the other reading I have done). Based on my understanding it seems like the only thing I would need to do is add some Gypsum to the mash water (BIAB for me) to get the RO water to where I would want it for my IPA (the Zombie Dust Clone found on this forum). Does this seem right?

Also, since I typically brew IPA's or maybe the occasional Pale Ale, once I have dialed in the water profile, I could duplicate it moving forward. Is this assumption correct?

Here are screenshots of what I have come up with using Bru'n Water. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thank you all in advance!

 

[PeteNMA]

Zombie Dust is a Pale Ale/IPA, you should try the Yellow Bitter water profile, or the Pale Ale profile instead of the Amber Balanced one which you have selected.

I have also had great success for Pale Ales with the Mad Fermentationist water profiles, he suggests 175ppm Sulfate and about 50ppm chloride.

You will need to add a small amount of Calcium Chloride in addition to the Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate). I would also suggest adding some Lactic Acid to bring the estimated pH down to 5.2-5.3 against the 5.5 predicted with no acid addition.

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

How is everyone getting the different profiles?
I cant seem to get them.
I am using the free version.

Thanks

 

[pshankstar]

How is everyone getting the different profiles?
I cant seem to get them.
I am using the free version.

Thanks

Look at my first screen shot from the "Water Adjustment" tab of the free version. At the top left corner you can see the two profile options. I'm using a MacBook so I had to use a 'two finger click" to get the drop down option to work. Also, make sure you enable macros when you open the file.

I hope this helps!

 

[philipCT]

So I have been reading a lot about how adjusting your water for all-grain or BIAB is important, well very important. I am waiting for the county to release their water report first before I get my own testing done. So in the mean time, I have been using spring water but found that I can get RO water a lot cheaper...

So I'll admit you are looking pretty good for having almost no salting, but the point of salting is to bring the profile closer to desired. Assuming the profile you used for the moment, instead of the good suggestion from PeteNMA about using a better profile...

You should try bringing Calcium, Magnesium and Chloride up to match your target profile. Try adding increments of 0.10 to see how it goes. If anything is fun about water, this tweaking is the fun part. After you get a best fit on these, then look at your pH and decide how much lactic you might need to bring the pH into the 5.2-5.6 zone.

 

[pshankstar]

Zombie Dust is a Pale Ale/IPA, you should try the Yellow Bitter water profile, or the Pale Ale profile instead of the Amber Balanced one which you have selected.

I have also had great success for Pale Ales with the Mad Fermentationist water profiles, he suggests 175ppm Sulfate and about 50ppm chloride.

You will need to add a small amount of Calcium Chloride in addition to the Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate). I would also suggest adding some Lactic Acid to bring the estimated pH down to 5.2-5.3 against the 5.5 predicted with no acid addition.

So I'll admit you are looking pretty good for having almost no salting, but the point of salting is to bring the profile closer to desired. Assuming the profile you used for the moment, instead of the good suggestion from PeteNMA about using a better profile...

You should try bringing Calcium, Magnesium and Chloride up to match your target profile. Try adding increments of 0.10 to see how it goes. If anything is fun about water, this tweaking is the fun part. After you get a best fit on these, then look at your pH and decide how much lactic you might need to bring the pH into the 5.2-5.6 zone.

Thank you both for your recommendations. I have taken both of your advice, I don't think I missed anything. With making those changes, what do you think of these numbers?

 

[jmitchell3]

Magnesium will come from the malt, not really any need to add it manually...that being said what you have there in your second post looks good. However, I do see that your estimated room temp pH is 5.2...which is a bit low. Remember, Bru'n Water estimates pH at room temp, at which the ideal range is 5.4-5.6 or so. This is in contrast to what you usually hear about the recommended mash ph of 5.2-5.4, because that measurement is taken at the mash temps fo 150F or so. That being said, I might dial back the acid additions a bit to dial the ph back up to around 5.4.

I switched to a Blichmann BrewEasy system, which uses the entire water volume as well. Folks in with that system, including John Blichmann himself, recommend at least 100ppm calcium for the mash to help with conversion efficiency. If I was you I'd be sure to have at least 50ppm, and maybe do the same beer twice...once with 50ppm and once with 100ppm to see if your mash efficiency improves or not.

I think BIAB is a great way to simplify all grain brewing, and I'm happy its proliferating! Good luck with your brew!

Happy brewing!

 

[ajdelange]

You can get an exact match at pH 5.4 by using the following additions:
Salt/Acid/Base mg/gal Synth
CaCl2.2H2O 301.67
NaCl 64.32
MgCl2.6H2O 154.70
CaSO4.2H20 371.63
MgSO4.7H20 196.30
H2O (DI) Liters 0.00
CaCO3 0.00
NaHCO3 45.86
CO2 0.00
HCl 0.00
Ca(OH)2 72.91
Na2CO3.H2O 0.00
Sodium Lactate 0.00
Potassium Lactate 0.00
Lactic 229.45
Sulfuric 0.00
88% Lactic ml/Gal 0.22

Note that we don't pay any attention to the bicarbonate here as there is only 1 mg/L bicarbonate at mash pH (5.4) and the bicarbonate numbers in the given profiles are meaningless as they are for balance at pH 8. Note that some acid is required here because we can't get the requisite calcium and sodium from the calcium chloride, calcium sulfate and sodium chloride without going over on the sulfate and chloride and so must use NaHCO3, Ca(OH)2 and CaCO3 to get the needed metals. These all require acid to get to mash pH and so the requirement for the modest amount of lactic acid required. Additional acid will be needed for the grist most probably.

For example, with a grist that has DI mash pH and buffering of 47 mEq/kg•pH you'd need 0.84 mL/gal more acid for a total of 1.06 mL/gal to hit pH 5.4

 

[HomeDrewBrew]

Look at my first screen shot from the "Water Adjustment" tab of the free version. At the top left corner you can see the two profile options. I'm using a MacBook so I had to use a 'two finger click" to get the drop down option to work. Also, make sure you enable macros when you open the file.

I hope this helps!

Ok,i had to scroll over to Upgraded features to see what your seeing but however since im running this on a Samsung S3 and not on a Mac nothing happens when i click except for Delete..

Where would the Macros option be and does it matter if im running it on a phone?.

Thanks

 

[pshankstar]

Ok,i had to scroll over to Upgraded features to see what your seeing but however since im running this on a Samsung S3 and not on a Mac nothing happens when i click except for Delete..

Where would the Macros option be and does it matter if im running it on a phone?.

Thanks

I'm not sure how this would work on a phone or tablet. That might be part of the issue that macros do not work on these devices. Not 100% but I would be willing to bet on that is the issue.

 

[pshankstar]

Ok, here is a silly question, but I need to ask. Do I add all of the adjustments to the mash water? Or do I add it to the boil? I will be doing a BIAB brew while making these adjustments. Thanks everyone!

 

[Yooper]

Ok, here is a silly question, but I need to ask. Do I add all of the adjustments to the mash water? Or do I add it to the boil? I will be doing a BIAB brew while making these adjustments. Thanks everyone!

I can't see the spreadsheet easily, but how do you have it in the spreadsheet? The first column is for the mash, the second for the sparge. Most people find it easiest to treat the water all at once. Adding all the salts to the mash may drive the pH down a tad (usually a good thing).

 

[pshankstar]

I can't see the spreadsheet easily, but how do you have it in the spreadsheet? The first column is for the mash, the second for the sparge. Most people find it easiest to treat the water all at once. Adding all the salts to the mash may drive the pH down a tad (usually a good thing).

There is no sparge water since I am doing BIAB. This would leave me to believe that all the additions would go into the mash water. I wasn't sure if there are some of those additions that shouldn't go into the mash but wait for the boil. Thanks Yooper and I hope that makes sense.

 

[Yooper]

There is no sparge water since I am doing BIAB. This would leave me to believe that all the additions would go into the mash water. I wasn't sure if there are some of those additions that shouldn't go into the mash but wait for the boil. Thanks Yooper and I hope that makes sense.

Oh, if you have 0 set for the amount of sparge water in that spreadsheet, then just use all the additions in the water in the mash.

 

[pshankstar]

Oh, if you have 0 set for the amount of sparge water in that spreadsheet, then just use all the additions in the water in the mash.

Great, thanks Yoopers! I would have hated to mess anything up b/c I just assumed all the additions I need would go into the mash.

 

[mabrungard]

Most people find it easiest to treat the water all at once. Adding all the salts to the mash may drive the pH down a tad (usually a good thing).

Easiest...yes, but not the most prudent or correct. The requirements for mashing water and sparging water quality can be miles apart. Treating all the brewing water to a single specification is actually foolish in most cases.

Yes, adding all the salts to the mashing water can drive the mashing pH down too far. You need to have software that can assess that factor to see how the pH will fare with all the salts added to the mash and how you can work with that technique to avoid the problems. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has that capability.

 

[ajdelange]

Easiest...yes, but not the most prudent or correct. The requirements for mashing water and sparging water quality can be miles apart.

The requirements for mashing and sparging water are the same: get it to mash pH with some desired ion profile (noting that bicarbonate and carbonate are not parts of that profile because at mash pH they are not factors).

Treating all the brewing water to a single specification is actually foolish in most cases.

Let's look at he case posed in the OP here. I gave, in #8, a set of salt and acid additions that would exactly match the target ion profile (except for bicarbonate). Those should be added to the entire volume of water to be treated. How is that foolish or is this a rare case where it isn't? Now when it is time to strike he will need to add an additional 0.2 mL acid per gallon strike water to the mash or to the strike water as it is added. Is this what you mean by requiring mash and sparge water to be miles apart? If not how about giving an example of a case where they would need to be miles apart.

Yes, adding all the salts to the mashing water can drive the mashing pH down too far.

I thought you were advocating treating them separately but yes, putting all the salts in the mash water would have a small effect on mash pH because calcium would be higher than if all the water were treated the same (to the same final level of liquor supplied calcium). But that's a small effect. In the case of the OP's situation the pH shift with double calcium is only going to be about 0.04 assuming a typical grist (and also assuming that half of Kohlbach's [Ca++]/3.5 appear in the mash and the other half in the kettle).

You need to have software that can assess that factor to see how the pH will fare with all the salts added to the mash and how you can work with that technique to avoid the problems. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has that capability.

Making things harder than they have to be may sell software but this isn't rocket science. It's a matter of counting protons.


In any case, Yooper is absolutely right. Treating the entire water volume is, in most cases, convenient and prudent. In fact I'm having trouble thinking of a case where it wouldn't be. I suppose if one knew he wanted a kettle pH lower than his mash pH he would want to add extra acid to the sparge water to overcome the small amount of mashout wort WRT that kettle pH but to me it's simpler to treat all the same way and then just add the extra acid to the kettle in the same way as we add the extra acid required for the mash to the mash water.

 

[Yooper]

Easiest...yes, but not the most prudent or correct. The requirements for mashing water and sparging water quality can be miles apart. Treating all the brewing water to a single specification is actually foolish in most cases.

Yes, adding all the salts to the mashing water can drive the mashing pH down too far. You need to have software that can assess that factor to see how the pH will fare with all the salts added to the mash and how you can work with that technique to avoid the problems. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water has that capability.

But..........on the spreadsheet he has 9 gallons for the mash water, and 0 gallons for the sparge water and the mash pH looks ok.

It's really hard to see on this little tablet, that's why I asked. I really can't think of any reason at all to hold back some of his additions for the kettle, if there are no "sparge additions" and the mash pH is in rage.