First All Grain Batch - Water Chemistry Question

[steveahol]

I’m preparing for my first All grain batch, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be about the water. First a bit of background

This is technically my second all train attempt. Let me explain:

I’ve been brewing full boil (5 gal), extract + specialty grain for many years. A few years back I tried to do a BIAB that went disastrously wrong. Not exactly sure why, but my temp control was way off so I suspect that was the main cause. But it could have been the water, I cant be sure. The experience and undrinkable beer put me off the all grain path and I went back to extract.

Now I’ve decided to try All grain again. This time I decided to buy a cooler mash tun with bazooka screen. I’m planning a simple batch sparge to start with. I’ve got a pretty good handle on most of the process, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be with my water chemistry.

I’ve gotten my city water report, and according to the “EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 3.0” without any adjustments I get the following ‘out of range’ values for Mash + Sparge water profile:

Estimated pH = 5.64 (idea 5.4-5.6)
Ca ppm = 35 (ideal 50-150)
Mg ppm = 9 (ideal 10-30)
SO4 ppm = 26 (ideal 50-350)

I can correct that with the following additions: 2g of Gypsum, 1g of Epsom Salt, 1ml of Lactic Acid. I then get:

pH = 5.52, Ca = 50, Mg = 12, SO4=79

Given such small amounts of addition, and the fact that I was “close” to the ideal ranges in the first place, I’m tempted to not add anything (because i'd rather not order and pay for shipping if i can help it).

On the other had, I don’t want to mess up my first AG batch all because of 3 lousy grams of salts!

I guess my question is: how much does it matter if my waters off a bit?

I'm not shooting for the perfect prize wining beer (yet), just trying not to F it up!

Thanks

 

[jdauria]

What about Cl (Chloride) ppm? SO4 to Cl ration is a factor to if you are making a hoppy beer (higher SO4 to Cl), a balanced beer (SO4 to Cl around 1.2) or a malty beer Cl higher than SO4. Ditto with the color of your beer, could you leave as is for a dark beer...sure because dark beers should have pH of between 5.4 and 5.6. For light beers, you want 5.2-5.4, etc.

 

[jrgtr42]

Honestly, you're pretty close to average.
If you drink your tap water, and you don't have any off smells or tastes, it should be pretty good for
a starter. My theory is to worry about one thing at a time. You've been doing the extract, so you've got the boil and hops and so forth down, now you can concentrate on producing your wort.
You can start with water chemistry in a couple batches if everything is working right otherwise.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The entire concept of a proper chloride to sulfate "ratio" is a fallacy from the not too distant past. Both are merely flavorings. One does not actually counter or negate or balance the other.

If you accidentally add too much salt to a plate of food, should you therefore also add too much pepper?

Both chloride and sulfate enhance hop bitterness. Not just sulfate. Another fallacy that needs to be killed off.

 

[EDF713]

The only thing I'll add is if your water has chloramines. Most municipal water has them to ensure safe water, or at least chlorine. Treating your water with Campden tablets will get rid of them, one crushed tablet per 20 gallons of water. I kept getting a medicinal bitterness about a month after bottling and this was the cause.

 

[steveahol]

Thanks everyone for your quick feedback!

The beer i'm brewing is an APA

SRM 7
IBU 44
OG 1.051

What about Cl (Chloride) ppm?

without additions Cl is 29, and CL/SO4 ratio is 1.13
with the salt additions its Cl = 29 and ratio 0.37
so i guess it "may enhance bitterness"? (according to the spreadsheet)... i can live with that!

...My theory is to worry about one thing at a time...

Definitely! I just want to make sure that by not worrying about it i'm not shooting myself in the foot!

If you accidentally add too much salt to a plate of food, should you therefore also add too much pepper?

Hahaha!... I love me a good analogy!

Treating your water with Campden tablets ...

I will definitely treat with a campden tablets... thanks!

 

[McKnuckle]

Sorry to add another thing to your list, but you need to know the alkalinity of your water - irrespective of the individual mineral ions, which in your case are low numbers and not likely to cause a problem. High alkalinity, however, can be a silent killer for a pale beer recipe. Does the report list this value?

 

[steveahol]

Sorry to add another thing to your list, but you need to know the alkalinity of your water - irrespective of the individual mineral ions, which in your case are low numbers and not likely to cause a problem. High alkalinity, however, can be a silent killer for a pale beer recipe. Does the report list this value?

Alkalinity is listed as 90.8ppm. The spreadsheet calculator has a place to input this, but dosnt seem to mention a recommended range. What do you consider "high" alkalinity?

 

[McKnuckle]

Make sure you input it on the spreadsheet. Then review the predicted mash pH. You want mash pH around 5.4, plus or minus a couple tenths.

You can add additional gypsum and/or CaCl to get it there if you are close. If you are far away and already pushing 100 ppm of either SO4 or Cl, then I’d suggest acidifying with lactic acid or acid malt.

But let’s not get ahead of ourselves. See what it predicts once alkalinity is provided.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I guess my question is: how much does it matter if my waters off a bit?

My input would be to not mess with water chemistry (except for treating with Campden). John Palmer calls water chemistry the "seasoning" of beer. Along that analogy, yes it makes a difference...but not if your chicken is still raw, your pasta is burnt, and you spilled the bowl of broccoli on the floor. As long as your water is in the ballpark for beer (which your's seems to be), then there are a lot of other things that are more important on your first all-grain try.

You could probably throw in some Gypsum (likely more than 2g...maybe 8g), skip the Epsom Salt, and add some acid (I cannot say how much...2% acidified malt might be safer than adding acid without a pH meter), but none of that was the issue with your first all grain batch (though removing chlorine/chloramine can be pretty important for all-grain brewing...unless you like the flavor of band-aids).

 

[bracconiere]

my two cents, Charlie Papazian...said it best, "if you take homebrewing seriously, you're doing something wrong"...i'm pretty sure the worst tap water won't stop the enzymes from working....


but if your trying to go pro, that's different i guess....

 

[Big Monk]

my two cents, Charlie Papazian...said it best, "if you take homebrewing seriously, you're doing something wrong"...i'm pretty sure the worst tap water won't stop the enzymes from working....


but if your trying to go pro, that's different i guess....

I’m preparing for my first All grain batch, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be about the water. First a bit of background

This is technically my second all train attempt. Let me explain:

I’ve been brewing full boil (5 gal), extract + specialty grain for many years. A few years back I tried to do a BIAB that went disastrously wrong. Not exactly sure why, but my temp control was way off so I suspect that was the main cause. But it could have been the water, I cant be sure. The experience and undrinkable beer put me off the all grain path and I went back to extract.

Now I’ve decided to try All grain again. This time I decided to buy a cooler mash tun with bazooka screen. I’m planning a simple batch sparge to start with. I’ve got a pretty good handle on most of the process, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be with my water chemistry.

I’ve gotten my city water report, and according to the “EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 3.0” without any adjustments I get the following ‘out of range’ values for Mash + Sparge water profile:

Estimated pH = 5.64 (idea 5.4-5.6)
Ca ppm = 35 (ideal 50-150)
Mg ppm = 9 (ideal 10-30)
SO4 ppm = 26 (ideal 50-350)

I can correct that with the following additions: 2g of Gypsum, 1g of Epsom Salt, 1ml of Lactic Acid. I then get:

pH = 5.52, Ca = 50, Mg = 12, SO4=79

Given such small amounts of addition, and the fact that I was “close” to the ideal ranges in the first place, I’m tempted to not add anything (because i'd rather not order and pay for shipping if i can help it).

On the other had, I don’t want to mess up my first AG batch all because of 3 lousy grams of salts!

I guess my question is: how much does it matter if my waters off a bit?

I'm not shooting for the perfect prize wining beer (yet), just trying not to F it up!

Thanks

Have you checked out this thread?:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

Water chemistry can be a bit daunting at first, not because of any real difficulty in the concepts, but in the sheer volume of info and opinions out there. Start simple and work into it.

 

[steveahol]

OK... the consensus seems to be that I'll be pretty OK without doing anything to my water (except add Campden).

Thats the answer i was hoping to get! This way i can concentrate on not messing up the rest of the brewing process. Then if something does seem seriously off on the final beer, i can be fairly confident its in my process, not my water chemistry. Once i get my process/extract efficiency dialed in, then i'll take a closer look at water, and do some more in-depth reading.

Thanks everyone for your comments. Much appreciated. I'll try and post back an update of how the batch turned out. (if i can ever find a free weekend to actually brew!)

 

[Soulshine2]

I’m preparing for my first All grain batch, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be about the water. First a bit of background

This is technically my second all train attempt. Let me explain:

I’ve been brewing full boil (5 gal), extract + specialty grain for many years. A few years back I tried to do a BIAB that went disastrously wrong. Not exactly sure why, but my temp control was way off so I suspect that was the main cause. But it could have been the water, I cant be sure. The experience and undrinkable beer put me off the all grain path and I went back to extract.

Now I’ve decided to try All grain again. This time I decided to buy a cooler mash tun with bazooka screen. I’m planning a simple batch sparge to start with. I’ve got a pretty good handle on most of the process, but I’m not sure how concerned I need to be with my water chemistry.

I’ve gotten my city water report, and according to the “EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 3.0” without any adjustments I get the following ‘out of range’ values for Mash + Sparge water profile:

Estimated pH = 5.64 (idea 5.4-5.6)
Ca ppm = 35 (ideal 50-150)
Mg ppm = 9 (ideal 10-30)
SO4 ppm = 26 (ideal 50-350)

I can correct that with the following additions: 2g of Gypsum, 1g of Epsom Salt, 1ml of Lactic Acid. I then get:

pH = 5.52, Ca = 50, Mg = 12, SO4=79

Given such small amounts of addition, and the fact that I was “close” to the ideal ranges in the first place, I’m tempted to not add anything (because i'd rather not order and pay for shipping if i can help it).

On the other had, I don’t want to mess up my first AG batch all because of 3 lousy grams of salts!

I guess my question is: how much does it matter if my waters off a bit?

I'm not shooting for the perfect prize wining beer (yet), just trying not to F it up!

Thanks

I brew like you do , with much success. If you can drink your tap water without experiencing some weird taste ,it'll be fine. Sounds good , brew on !

 

[McKnuckle]

I understand how people develop the mindset that water is easy - if you are fortunate enough to have low mineral, low alkalinity water at your tap, then it's natural for you to think other people are obsessing over something unnecessary.

My tap water is from a well. It is extremely hard water with massive alkalinity. We soften it in the house for cooking and bathing, which is also unsuitable for brewing.

When I started brewing, I also cited the "relax don't worry" mantra, yet every light beer I brewed was terrible - harshly bitter - for no obvious reason. The dark ones were better, but still had some off tastes. Eventually, I studied up on water, got it tested, saw the light, and figured out what to do. I have to use RO, distilled, or bottled spring water. Period. So I needed to learn some water basics.

Just wanted to put this out there. You are lucky if you can just fill your kettle with the backyard garden hose and call it good. Water is not simple for some of us.