Finished at 1.020 with four different beers with S-04

[Setesh]

I brewed three different beers 3 weeks ago.

Nut Brown Ale
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f67/nut-brown-ag-30187/
Revvy's Kiss Yer Cousin Rye
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/kiss-yer-cousin-rye-kentucky-common-ale-290419/
BierMuncher's Black Pearl Porter
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f126/black-pearl-porter-ag-24243/

I used a prior slurry of S-04 in all three and they have all finished at 1.020. For the Black Pearl Porter this is perfect, so no worries there. But I expected the nut brown to finish at ~1.014 and the Kentucky rye to finish ~1.012. Both have finished at 1.020.

Nut Brown OG 1.056, mashed at 154, FG 1.020
Rye OG 1.042, mashed at 147, FG 1.020
Porter OG 1.058, mashed at 158, FG 1.020

All three fermented at 65 for 1 week, ramped up to 70 over the course of another week and then to 75 for another week. Gravities have been stable on all of them for over a week now. I have tried stirring the yeast back into suspension to no avail.

I pitched according to MrMalty for both. The prior slurry came from BierMucher's OktoberFAST which I had mashed at 158 and fermented at 66. The Oktoberfast finished at 1.022.

I hit all of my beers below 1.060 OG with 60 seconds of pure O2 through a .5 micron stone and anything over 1.060 with 90 seconds. I do only all grain, I chill to pitching temps with an immersion chiller. I ferment in better bottles in mini fridges with STC-1000 controllers taped to the BB with a later of closed cell foam for insulation of the probe.

I have not brewed the brown or the porter before, but the last two times I brewed the rye I used 05 and finished at 1.011.

I have used two different hydrometers just in case this was a problem.
I have tried swirling the yeast back up into suspension. They are both sitting at 76 in my office right now which is the warmest area of my house. I am at a loss. Any ideas as to why I seem to make S-04 finish at 1.020 no matter the beer?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

That is strange. Only 50-60% attenuation? I normally get about 85% attenuation from S-04.

How did you estimate your cell count? Without a hemacytometer it's hard to really know. 1 billion cells per ml is a reasonable assumption.

Perhaps you could provide some information on the slurry you used? How much did you use? If you have any left over, how much has it compacted? If you would like I could do a cell count.

 

[oxpajama]

Maybe s04 is best used from the package? I've never repitched it and it attens like a boss.

 

[Setesh]

That is strange. Only 50-60% attenuation? I normally get about 85% attenuation from S-04.

How did you estimate your cell count? Without a hemacytometer it's hard to really know. 1 billion cells per ml is a reasonable assumption.

Perhaps you could provide some information on the slurry you used? How much did you use? If you have any left over, how much has it compacted? If you would like I could do a cell count.

The yeast slurry had been kept in the fridge for a week so had formed a nice tight layer at the bottom and there was nice clear beer on top. It was in a mason jar. I decanted all but about an inch of beer off of the top of the slurry, stirred it up into what was a pretty thick slurry. I used the default settings on mrmalty.com which has served me well in the past. I used a measuring cup to determine the volume and pitched a little over 3 ounces into the rye and a little over 4 ounces into the brown. When I was done there was only a little bit left so I just cleaned out the jar.

 

[Setesh]

Maybe s04 is best used from the package? I've never repitched it and it attens like a boss.

The second pitch of a yeast should be better than the first. Typically a yeast really starts hitting its stride around the 3rd-4th pitch. This assumes good harvesting and washing techniques and proper sanitation of course. It can easily go the other way. If a brewer were to collect yeast from secondary and re pitch it the yeast could turn powdery and not floculate because the least floculant yeast cells were selected to reproduce.

 

[AT-JeffT]

I've used s-04 extensively and in my results I've found it would consistently(package or repitch) finish out on me at 1.012. What's your mashing schedule? Also, how much yeast are you pitching?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Ditto. I've repitched S-04 several times and had attenuation in the eighty's. How thick was the layer of compacted yeast, and what size was the jar?

S-04 is a yeast that I have had a lot of microscope time with. Looking back at my data I've done 34 counts in the last year. It compacts to 3.5 billion cells per ml which is pretty tight. A week in the fridge should put you at about 90% viability.

 

[QuercusMax]

Check your thermometer. Since it appears you are doing all grain, mash temp is crucial. If you're mashing 5 or 10 degrees high, you will kill your attenuation.

 

[Setesh]

I've used s-04 extensively and in my results I've found it would consistently(package or repitch) finish out on me at 1.012. What's your mashing schedule? Also, how much yeast are you pitching?

Single infusion mash.

Nut Brown OG 1.056, mashed at 154, FG 1.020
Rye OG 1.042, mashed at 147, FG 1.020
Porter OG 1.058, mashed at 158, FG 1.020

The pitching rate could be the problem. I pitched a little over 3oz of slurry into the rye and a little over 4oz into the brown.

 

[duboman]

Sounds like your thermometer is off and you're mashing a bit higher than you think you are and getting a less fermentable wort

 

[Setesh]

How thick was the layer of compacted yeast, and what size was the jar?

Quart mason jar. The yeast filled about 1/5 of the jar before I decanted, then after I shook it up really good with the remaining beer it took about 1/4 of the jar and was very thick.

 

[Setesh]

Check your thermometer. Since it appears you are doing all grain, mash temp is crucial. If you're mashing 5 or 10 degrees high, you will kill your attenuation.

My thermometers were off by a couple of degrees, but nothing that drastic. I know this because I just got a thermapen and played around with the range to see how my old faithful thermometers did. That is not the problem though because I have been using these thermometers for years and not had this issue. I have brewed the Kentucky Rye multiple times using all of the same equipment and thermometers and pitching S-05 and had it finish at 1.010-1.012. The Rye is kind of like a control. Same recipe, same temps, same process, just a different yeast.

 

[duboman]

My thermometers were off by a couple of degrees. I know this because I just got a thermapen and played around with the range to see how my old faithful thermometers did. That is not the problem though because I have been using these thermometers for years and not had this issue. I have brewed the Kentucky Rye multiple times using all of the same equipment and thermometers and pitching S-05 and had it finish at 1.010-1.012. The Rye is kind of like a control. Same recipe, same temps, same process, just a different yeast.

Sorry, I don't buy into this, just because these were your old trusty thermometers doesn't mean the they didn't get worse in their accuracy, especially when you are talking about 3 batches with the same problem, if you think your mashing at 158 and it's really 160 your attenuation suffers.

Use the therms pen on your next identical batch and I'm sure your results will be better

 

[bethebrew]

I brewed three different beers 3 weeks ago.

Nut Brown Ale
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f67/nut-brown-ag-30187/
Revvy's Kiss Yer Cousin Rye
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/kiss-yer-cousin-rye-kentucky-common-ale-290419/
BierMuncher's Black Pearl Porter
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f126/black-pearl-porter-ag-24243/

I used a prior slurry of S-04 in all three and they have all finished at 1.020. For the Black Pearl Porter this is perfect, so no worries there. But I expected the nut brown to finish at ~1.014 and the Kentucky rye to finish ~1.012. Both have finished at 1.020.

Nut Brown OG 1.056, mashed at 154, FG 1.020
Rye OG 1.042, mashed at 147, FG 1.020
Porter OG 1.058, mashed at 158, FG 1.020

All three fermented at 65 for 1 week, ramped up to 70 over the course of another week and then to 75 for another week. Gravities have been stable on all of them for over a week now. I have tried stirring the yeast back into suspension to no avail.

I pitched according to MrMalty for both. The prior slurry came from BierMucher's OktoberFAST which I had mashed at 158 and fermented at 66. The Oktoberfast finished at 1.022.

I hit all of my beers below 1.060 OG with 60 seconds of pure O2 through a .5 micron stone and anything over 1.060 with 90 seconds. I do only all grain, I chill to pitching temps with an immersion chiller. I ferment in better bottles in mini fridges with STC-1000 controllers taped to the BB with a later of closed cell foam for insulation of the probe.

I have not brewed the brown or the porter before, but the last two times I brewed the rye I used 05 and finished at 1.011.

I have used two different hydrometers just in case this was a problem.
I have tried swirling the yeast back up into suspension. They are both sitting at 76 in my office right now which is the warmest area of my house. I am at a loss. Any ideas as to why I seem to make S-04 finish at 1.020 no matter the beer?

No idea. I used outdated dry packs of S-04, one in each 6 gallon carboy, on an English IPA recently. No starter, no rehydration. Pitched in the dry yeast as the packet instructed. OG 1.070. One got fruit in secondary with dry hopping, one carboy didn't. No fruit finished at 1.020. Fruit finished at 1.019. 63 F ferment, a month in primary a little less than a month in secondary. Cooled it down to 50 F mid secondary.

 

[Setesh]

Sorry, I don't buy into this, just because these were your old trusty thermometers doesn't mean the they didn't get worse in their accuracy, especially when you are talking about 3 batches with the same problem, if you think your mashing at 158 and it's really 160 your attenuation suffers.

Use the therms pen on your next identical batch and I'm sure your results will be better

I agree that the higher temps the lower the fermentability of the wort, but 8 points? I think I'll make a lager starter and pitch that in a couple of days. Lager yeast are better at long chains than ale yeast so that could do the trick. What do you think?

 

[Setesh]

No idea. I used outdated dry packs of S-04, one in each 6 gallon carboy, on an English IPA recently. No starter, no rehydration. Pitched in the dry yeast as the packet instructed. OG 1.070. One got fruit in secondary with dry hopping, one carboy didn't. No fruit finished at 1.020. Fruit finished at 1.019. 63 F ferment, a month in primary a little less than a month in secondary. Cooled it down to 50 F mid secondary.

Yeah, I want to go back through my log book and see what past batches with S-04 have finished at, but it's packed in some box or another while we redo my office.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Quart mason jar. The yeast filled about 1/5 of the jar before I decanted, then after I shook it up really good with the remaining beer it took about 1/4 of the jar and was very thick.

Thanks for the extra information. If your S-04 preforms the same as mine did that would make your slurry about 3 billion viable cells per ml. 3oz would be just over 250 billion viable cells. That sounds about right for a 5 gallon batch of 1.060 ale.

Perhaps the viability was low. What was the alcohol content of the BierMucher's OktoberFAST that the slury came out of and how long between pitching that beer and pitching the next beer?

Here is information on viability of yeast based on the ABV of the beer it is taken from:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html

 

[duboman]

I agree that the higher temps the lower the fermentability of the wort, but 8 points? I think I'll make a lager starter and pitch that in a couple of days. Lager yeast are better at long chains than ale yeast so that could do the trick. What do you think?

Sure, an 8 point difference is possible and I'm really not sure that a lager yeast pitch will chew away any more points. You can also try some amylase if the beer is too sweet

 

[Setesh]

Thanks for the extra information. If your S-04 preforms the same as mine did that would make your slurry about 3 billion viable cells per ml. 3oz would be just over 250 billion viable cells. That sounds about right for a 5 gallon batch of 1.060 ale.

Perhaps the viability was low. What was the alcohol content of the BierMucher's OktoberFAST that the slury came out of and how long between pitching that beer and pitching the next beer?

Here is information on viability of yeast based on the ABV of the beer it is taken from:
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html

The OktoberFAST was 1050 OG and it finished 1022 which puts it a little under 4% ABV. I brewed it, let it ferment for a week then transferred it to secondary to steel it's yeast cake. It was at 1.022 when I transferred it and there it remained. The slurry sat in the fridge for one week before I used it for these three beers.

 

[Setesh]

Sure, an 8 point difference is possible and I'm really not sure that a lager yeast pitch will chew away any more points. You can also try some amylase if the beer is too sweet

It is far too sweet for what it is. I don't want to try something like beeno because that will keep on going until it's denatured, but amylase wouldn't.

 

[AT-JeffT]

Edit: didn't read whole thread