FINALLY Making Great Cider - Stuff I Wish I'd Known 4 Years Ago

[lowtones84]

Good info on here. I tend to like my ciders dry and I think they're quite good with the proper age, but I'm interested in the tannins bit. I'm not an experienced cider maker, so is there a way to get actual apple tannins into a small batch (I normally do 3g with my cider) without having a press? Assuming starting with quality juice, good processes, and proper aging, of course. Thanks folks!

 

[Frognostic]

Interesting points.

I like a bone-dry cider though.

 

[thaymond]

If it hasn't been posted here yet, here is an AHA report on a yeast trial for hard ciders. This report is why I use wlp002 for all my ciders.

 

[snacks]

Took a sample after a week in the primary. It was down to 1.010 and I did not like the taste of the sample, it tasted like my weisenbier that didn't turn out all that good. Hopefully 2 more weeks will clean it up.

 

[Fnitchiefl]

Hey great stuff, I have a question, I ve had a batch goin since approx 7-1-15. Nottingham yeast, two weeks fermented, back sweetened with cider, bottled kept at about 75 F since then. I've tried a couple every now and then, they are heavily fermented, which I like actually, but they are very yeasty. Coming back from vacation drinking the occasional angry orchard, when I left I was thinking that mine would stand up, but when I got back they were hardly drinkable after having the commercial stuff. Will mine lose these yeasties over time?

 

[Yooper]

Hey great stuff, I have a question, I ve had a batch goin since approx 7-1-15. Nottingham yeast, two weeks fermented, back sweetened with cider, bottled kept at about 75 F since then. I've tried a couple every now and then, they are heavily fermented, which I like actually, but they are very yeasty. Coming back from vacation drinking the occasional angry orchard, when I left I was thinking that mine would stand up, but when I got back they were hardly drinkable after having the commercial stuff. Will mine lose these yeasties over time?

No, not if they are already bottled. The yeasty flavor might come from tons of yeast now in the bottom of the bottle. If you have a lot of yeast in suspension, then it might be from that, and it might get better once the yeast falls out to the bottom of the bottle, and is poured from off of that without disturbing the sediment. Nottingham yeast is usually really good at falling out, though, so I think the first scenario (where there is just a ton of yeast in the bottle) is most likely.

 

[oljimmy]

When folks say yeasts don't make a difference, is it because you've done side-by-sides taste tests and concluded no diff, or because you've tasted each independently and found them all very good?

--SiletzSpey

Yes. I just concluded a five-yeast test using juice I pressed from Cortlands. Lavlin D47, Montrachet, Premier Cuvee, E-1118 and a spontaneous Wild ferment. Each yeast, unsurprisingly, took the juice down to around 0.995, and the resulting ciders were indistinguishable (i.e. each was equally gross). There may have been subtle differences had I used S-04 or Nottingham, but I wanted to test the wine yeasts.

For me, anyway, this confirms my point: when you're using substandard juice (Cortlands, and from a heavily fertilized, nitrogen-rich orchard) the yeast factor drops out. The juice is far and away the most important factor in determining resulting cider quality.

 

[muggsy]

so what would have happened if you had cold-crashed at 1.020?

 

[1ciderman]

Let me run this by y'all (lol)since everyone here seems to know something .
Just a guy with 20 apple trees and looking for good uses.

6 gal apple cider -added camden tablets-waited 30hrs
moved to carboy and added lalvin ec-1118 yeast, 3 tsp yeast energizer
OG-1032@72 put away for 24 days then racked-SG reading 1002
no-lol should it have a taste ?

 

[j1n]

Edit: pls delete this post

 

[oljimmy]

so what would have happened if you had cold-crashed at 1.020?

The cider would have been much, much better, though that would have been because of the residual sugar. It's not clear to me that this is any different from backsweetening and pasteurizing, though.

 

[oljimmy]

Let me run this by y'all (lol)since everyone here seems to know something .
Just a guy with 20 apple trees and looking for good uses.

6 gal apple cider -added camden tablets-waited 30hrs
moved to carboy and added lalvin ec-1118 yeast, 3 tsp yeast energizer
OG-1032@72 put away for 24 days then racked-SG reading 1002
no-lol should it have a taste ?

Hey ciderman, 1.032 is very low for cider juice. Next time pick them as late as you can and wait at least two weeks for the starches to convert to sugars. I had apples go from 1.045 to 1.058 in three weeks of starch conversion!

 

[MEPNew2Brew]

I made a batch of cider - didn't like it. Subscribed to learn something.

 

[1ciderman]

Hey ciderman, 1.032 is very low for cider juice. Next time pick them as late as you can and wait at least two weeks for the starches to convert to sugars. I had apples go from 1.045 to 1.058 in three weeks of starch conversion!

Thanks
will do

Started this as a new thread didn't know if i was doing it right

 

[oljimmy]

Thanks
will do

Started this as a new thread didn't know if i was doing it right

Cool. If you're really interested in finding out whether conversion is complete, buy this:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003IPIYT8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Cut a picked apple open and drop some of the iodine on. If it turns black or dark, the apple's not ready. If you're wondering what a finished apple looks like: http://www.cider.org.uk/iodine_test.html.

 

[StewGil]

Very useful post oljimmy - I'd really appreciate any comments on my efforts.
I press juice from a mix of local eating/cooking apples after storing for a month to maximise ripening. SG is consistently around 1.055. I don't pasturise or sulfite and immediately pitch with a champagne yeast. I let the fermentation go to completion and the yeast to clear and the transfer to 10gal beer kegs for 4-5 months over the winter. In spring I bottle and carb with 1tsp sugar/500ml and leave for 1-2 yrs. The result is dry but not overly so, v appley and lightly gassed and everyone has given it the thumbs- up.
I would like to try for a slightly sweeter finish this year. This means not fermenting to completion but I'm not sure how to alter my protocol to achieve this. Will a long prebottling maturation gradually ferment out the residual sugar, if not will it self- carb when I bottle later or if I add more sugar at this point will it over-carb?
Any comments gratefully received. Thanks
StewGil

 

[Peruvian802]

The best cider I've made in the past 5 years was back sweetened with lactose. To each their own.

 

[alaktheman]

What is the highest starting gravity without having a thick final product that feels almost syrupy in the mouth?

 

[jsiddall]

What is the highest starting gravity without having a thick final product that feels almost syrupy in the mouth?

I don't think there is any natural apple juice that couldn't be fermented dry by commonly used yeast. Anything below 1.100 should go dry.

FAJC on the other hand will cause all yeasts to stall at a high, syrupy, final SG.

 

[alaktheman]

Fajc?

 

[jsiddall]

Fajc?

Frozen Apple Juice Concentrate

 

[alaktheman]

Oh OK

 

[oljimmy]

Hey Stew,

I'm a big believer in backsweetening and bottle-pasteurization. Technically you can do multiple rackings to slow down fermentation and stop anywhere between 1.000-1.020, but the result is highly unpredictable in my experience, and there is always the risk of re-starting fermentation unwittingly. Ferment as you normally do, get some fresh apple juice, add enough to bring the cider up to the desired gravity, pasteurize (see sticky in this thread for Pappers' method). Add 2 points of gravity if you want to naturally carbonate before pasteurizing, though you'll have to monitor fermentation closely.

Very useful post oljimmy - I'd really appreciate any comments on my efforts.
I press juice from a mix of local eating/cooking apples after storing for a month to maximise ripening. SG is consistently around 1.055. I don't pasturise or sulfite and immediately pitch with a champagne yeast. I let the fermentation go to completion and the yeast to clear and the transfer to 10gal beer kegs for 4-5 months over the winter. In spring I bottle and carb with 1tsp sugar/500ml and leave for 1-2 yrs. The result is dry but not overly so, v appley and lightly gassed and everyone has given it the thumbs- up.
I would like to try for a slightly sweeter finish this year. This means not fermenting to completion but I'm not sure how to alter my protocol to achieve this. Will a long prebottling maturation gradually ferment out the residual sugar, if not will it self- carb when I bottle later or if I add more sugar at this point will it over-carb?
Any comments gratefully received. Thanks
StewGil

 

[StewGil]

Thanks that's a great help. I had another question I forgot to ask. Are there any yeasts that stop fermenting around 1.010 without racking ie are more alcohol intolerant, This would also help- the champagne yeast is pretty aggressive and alcohol resistant although it gives a nice finish.

 

[bmd2k1]

Great info @oljimmy !

Many Thanks & Cheers from this newbie

 

[johnnyseko]

Yes - this was a good read!

I need to find an orchard with cider apples now.

 

[kaitlin.shears]

Hey, great advice you've got here!

I'm a newbie to making cider and I'd like to know.. have most juices you've tested been under the 6.5 g/L ?

I'm trying to keep my costs down for the first experiments, so I won't be buying too much equipment.