Few startup questions regarding flaked oats and sparging

[josbor11]

I am going to be doing my first five gallon batch soon but I am still brewing with extract. How would I go about using flaked oats in an extract recipe? Can you steep them with all the other grains or do I need to do a partial mash with them? If I have to do a partial mash, do I mash all the grains together or just mash the oats on their own while steeping the rest as planned (roasted barley, chocolate malt, carapils).

Also, probably a super nooby question but what is sparging? Do I need to be doing this with my steeped grains?

 

[lumpher]

Steeping oatmeal does basically nothing. You really need to do a partial mash with it. You can steep carapils or carafoam if you need to get mouthfeel out of it. Sparging is basically nothing more than rinsing the grains. Not necessary for steeping, since you're using so little grain in so much water.

 

[josbor11]

So I would just add a a gallon and a half or so of water to a kettle and heat to 160, take it off a burner and steep all the grains for how long? Would 10-15 minutes suffice? Then you heat a second pot (your main wort pot) to boiling water and after you finish your 15 minute steep in pot one you just move the grain bag to the hotter one and steep it again? Then combine the first pot with the second and continue as normal (add malt, bittering hops), bring to boil, etc?

 

[Yooper]

So I would just add a a gallon and a half or so of water to a kettle and heat to 160, take it off a burner and steep all the grains for how long? Would 10-15 minutes suffice? Then you heat a second pot (your main wort pot) to boiling water and after you finish your 15 minute steep in pot one you just move the grain bag to the hotter one and steep it again? Then combine the first pot with the second and continue as normal (add malt, bittering hops), bring to boil, etc?

Unfortunately, you'd need to do a mash with the oats. That means using some base malt as well, and about 1 pound of it per every pound of other grains.

You'd hold the mash at 150-155 for an hour, using 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain.

Then, simply lift the grainbag out and pour 170 degree water over it, until you reach your boil volume. Bring that to a boil, and proceed just like with an extract batch.

 

[chickypad]

Deathbrewer has an illustrated partial mash sticky at the top of this forum that might help. A few other things:

1) As Yooper mentioned you need some base malt in your mash. You may need to decrease your extract a bit depending how big your mash is. If you post the recipe we can give you actual numbers.

2) You can do the dunk sparge that is shown in the sticky, or there is the pour over method Yooper noted. You can also skip the sparge step entirely and just use a little more mash water (commonly done with BIAB). So rather than 1.25-1.5 qt per lb you could use 2-2.5 qts per lb, drain and squeeze the bag at the end of the mash, then proceed with your boil with no added step. I would use the green bay rackers calculator linked in the sticky to determine your strike temp based on how much mash water you decide to do. Be sure to use a big bag so the grains are really loose, and stir really well.

3) The mash is typically longer than just 10 min. You may get most of the conversion in a short time depending on how fine your crush is, but I would go at least 30-45 min. If you end up doing the dunk sparge it's not steeping again, you're just rinsing the grains. Open the bag up, stir the crap out of them, then lift and squeeze - you don't need to let it steep.

 

[Sailingeric]

I do extract and I have found .25 to .5 pounds of carafoam will give it nice head and mouthfeel. Anything more and I get a head that will never go away.

 

[chickypad]

I don't think we answered your question about sparging your steeping grains. Sparging is just rinsing additional sugars from the grain after a mash. The dunk sparge is a type of batch sparge, where you add all the sparge water at once and rinse the whole batch. The other main type of sparging is fly sparging, usually applying to all grain with a mash tun, where you slowly add water to the top of the grainbed and continuously rinse the sugars that way. The pour over method is sort of mimicking that. Lastly as I mentioned you can do no-sparge, and instead combine the sparge water and mash water all in a thin mash. When you are just steeping grains for an extract batch you are usually already using a ton of water compared to a traditional mash. In that case most folks don't bother sparging their steeping grains. Hope that helps.

 

[brewcat]

You need to mash flaked oats. This step converts the starch to sugars, just steeping you would get starch haze and sugars the yeast can't use.

What I always did for partial mashes was to mash all the grains in a grain bag & separate pot for 60 minutes @ 152 or so. I then transferred the grain bag to a colander to drain into a bowl. I then dumped the bowl and dunked the grain bag in 170 degree water (to rinse the grains). I then proceeded as normal.

Congrats you are on your way to all grain. Understanding the mash step is a big one.

 

[josbor11]

Deathbrewer has an illustrated partial mash sticky at the top of this forum that might help. A few other things:

1) As Yooper mentioned you need some base malt in your mash. You may need to decrease your extract a bit depending how big your mash is. If you post the recipe we can give you actual numbers.

2) You can do the dunk sparge that is shown in the sticky, or there is the pour over method Yooper noted. You can also skip the sparge step entirely and just use a little more mash water (commonly done with BIAB). So rather than 1.25-1.5 qt per lb you could use 2-2.5 qts per lb, drain and squeeze the bag at the end of the mash, then proceed with your boil with no added step. I would use the green bay rackers calculator linked in the sticky to determine your strike temp based on how much mash water you decide to do. Be sure to use a big bag so the grains are really loose, and stir really well.

3) The mash is typically longer than just 10 min. You may get most of the conversion in a short time depending on how fine your crush is, but I would go at least 30-45 min. If you end up doing the dunk sparge it's not steeping again, you're just rinsing the grains. Open the bag up, stir the crap out of them, then lift and squeeze - you don't need to let it steep.

Yikes, all the responses in here might have me more confused than I originally was lol. Here is the recipe:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/316464/el-diablo-coffee-vanilla-imperial-stout

I checked out that the sticky and noticed he didn't seem to use any malts in that tutorial yet everyone here is mentioning it being needed. Is there a way I can do all of this if I only have two kettles and one of the two is only 2 gallons? I can't really afford to go buy another big kettle right now. The main one I just bought is six gallons.

I guess what is confusing me the most is I don't understand how "mashing" is any different than steeping. It sounds like either way you are just soaking grains in a pot of water around 150-165. The grains I ordered off Northern Brewer from the recipe are coming crushed and I also ordered one of these mesh strainers to go with them.

So correct me I am wrong here but it sounds like I would fill my larger six gallon kettle with water and heat it up 160 degrees then I take the kettle off the heat source, drape that mesh filter over the pot and add in all my grains and just let them soak for 30 minutes with the lid on while stirring occasionally. Then I could fill my smaller 2 gallon kettle with a gallon and a half of water roughly and bring that to a boil (or no boil?). After I finish letting the grains soak in my larger kettle I would just lift the grain bag out and let all the water drip into the kettle (do I squeeze the grain bag here?) and pour the hot water over the grains into the same large kettle I was already using using a colander or something. Then after this, I am lost lol. That is assuming anything I just summed up is even right.

 

[PlexVector]

@josbor11,
short answer: Mashing unlocks the enzymes in the grain to convert starches in the grain and oats to sugars for the yeast. Steeping is making a "tea" to extract flavor, since roasted grain has no enzymatic power, which was lost due to the extreme heat of roasting.

 

[chickypad]

You're right the process is very similar between mashing and steeping. The difference is what you don't see - i.e. the enzymatic conversion of starches to sugars that occurs when you include a base malt in the mix. Mashing also is typically done at a more controlled water to grain ratio and a narrower temp range. So if you are only steeping specialty grains that don't have any enzymatic power (diastatic power) then there is no conversion going on and you are not mashing.

I'm not sure what you mean about the tutuorial not including any malts. Those grains he is mashing include base malts and specialty malts. The dry stuff he adds to the boil is dry malt extract.

A 6 gal kettle should be plenty big. I do up to 10 lb of grain in my 5 gal kettle for my small BIAB batches.

 

[chickypad]

Looked at the recipe, here is what I would do:

1) Combine 3 lb 2 row with your specialty grains for 6.5 lb mash. Heat 18 qts water to 161*, stir in the grains really well, temp should be in the 152* range. This should take up 5 gal of space according to the calculator. Wrap the pot in blankets and let it sit for 30-60 min.

2) Drain and squeeze the bag really well. This should leave you with about 4 gals of wort. Then you can proceed as normal with your boil

3) Decrease your DME by about 1.5 lbs

This is a no sparge technique, and I think would be simplest for your first go.

 

[josbor11]

Looked at the recipe, here is what I would do:

1) Combine 3 lb 2 row with your specialty grains for 6.5 lb mash. Heat 18 qts water to 161*, stir in the grains really well, temp should be in the 152* range. This should take up 5 gal of space according to the calculator. Wrap the pot in blankets and let it sit for 30-60 min.

2) Drain and squeeze the bag really well. This should leave you with about 4 gals of wort. Then you can proceed as normal with your boil

3) Decrease your DME by about 1.5 lbs

This is a no sparge technique, and I think would be simplest for your first go.

Thanks for this! The technique outlined here is considered partial mash then? Would pouring hot water over the grains to sparge create better beer or is it a useless step?

Sounds like the only difference is that when you mash your steeping grains and malt together vs just grains on their own and for longer time periods.

Sorry to hound you for a few more questions but why is it that extract kits tell you not to squeeze the grains due to tannins but with mashing your intentionally squeezing the **** out of them?

Also two row is not considered extract is it? Didn't know you could mix DME/LME with 'real malt.'

Lastly, should I add all the 9 lbs of DME at once or split it in half and add the rest towards the end of the boil?

 

[chickypad]

Thanks for this! The technique outlined here is considered partial mash then? Would pouring hot water over the grains to sparge create better beer or is it a useless step? Yes, this is a partial mash because you are getting some of your fermentables from a mash and some from extract. Sparging doesn't create better beer, it's done to improve efficiency (get more out of the grains). But with the thin mash I described you're probably not gaining that much more. It's also possible to over sparge, leading to too high of a pH and tannins (see below). If you were to mash thicker, say with 8-9 qts, then yes you'd probably want to sparge with the rest (either pour over or dunk).

Sounds like the only difference is that when you mash your steeping grains and malt together vs just grains on their own and for longer time periods. You are confusing terms. Malted barley is grain. Some malts have diastatic power and can be used as the base malt in a mash - like 2-row, pilsner, pale malt, wheat malt. Steeping grains can be malted (crystal malt, chocolate malt, black malt) or unmalted like roasted barley. In these cases you get flavor and color from the steep, as well as sugars that have already been converted, but these grains don't have diastatic power on their own. There are yet other malts and unmalted grains with no DP that are not good for steeping and should to be mashed with a base malt to really get anything - like flaked oats/wheat/barley, biscuit malt, adjuncts like rice and corn. The difference with mashing is that you have enough base malt with diastatic power to convert the mash.

Sorry to hound you for a few more questions but why is it that extract kits tell you not to squeeze the grains due to tannins but with mashing your intentionally squeezing the **** out of them? I don't know the history of that idea, but I can tell you that BIAB brewers have been squeezing the bags for yrs and we don't have problems with tannins. They are more an effect of too high of a mash pH than anything.

Also two row is not considered extract is it? Didn't know you could mix DME/LME with 'real malt.' No, 2-row is malted barley (grain). Extract is real malt though - it's just malted barley that has already been mashed into wort, then dehydrated and concentrated into either a liquid (LME) or dry (DME).

Lastly, should I add all the 9 lbs of DME at once or split it in half and add the rest towards the end of the boil? In most cases you will probably benefit from late addition to avoid over darkening the wort and leading to off flavors. Definitely do late addition if you are doing a partial boil and topping up.

answers in red

 

[josbor11]

answers in red

You rock man. Haven't even started my first five gallon batch yet and you already have me half way to all grain haha. There was definitely a disconnect for me with the terminology. I don't know why but for some reason it wasn't registering to me that extract could be replaced with grain (hence all grain, duh ). Seems the real category is actually just malted vs unmalted and I never saw it that way.

 

[chickypad]

Seems the real category is actually just malted vs unmalted and I never saw it that way.

Yep, but then within the malted category there are malts with diastatic power and malts without. What makes it a mash is that you have enough of the first category, i.e. base malt, to convert the starches to fermentable sugars.

 

[josbor11]

Well yesterday was brew day....and it was a disaster lol. I'll break it down and hope for the best. I picked up seven gallons of filtered water from the grocery store and started with 4.5 as suggested and brought the kettle up to 162 degrees. Once it hit 162, I took the kettle off the burner and placed it on a flannel blanket and then added the brewers filter bag. Added and gently stirred in all 6.5 lbs of grain I had, covered it up, and wrapped another blanket around the outside. I decided to shoot for a 60 minute mash and just like magic, it was at 152 degrees when I started. Those calculators are pretty impressive. I decided to check on it every 20 minutes to get a temp and give it a light stir. To my excitement, after a full hour it still was sitting at 150 on the dot. I was pretty excited here thinking that I nailed my first partial mash. I lifted the grains out of the kettle and let them drip for as long as I could then put the bag aside into one of my buckets. It was then that I realized that at some point the filter bag had ripped open on the bottom. Luckily not a huge rip, but enough to let maybe 1/3 to 1/2 cup of grain into the kettle. I had ordered my grain crushed from NB so there was no use in trying to catch it all since it was so small. I decided to proceed.

Fast forward and I stirred in my extract and started preparing for a boil. This is where it got ugly. I actually had a lot of volume at the start of my boil, more than expected. I don't know if the grain just didn't soak much up or what but I started with about 19 quarts after the extract. About an hour went by, there was definitely action but not a boil by definition. Just a lot of small fizzy bubbles at the top. This is when I made my second unfortunate discovery. I went to temp the water to see how close I was to a boil and my thermometer told me I was at 222 degrees. This was clearly not the case so I dug out our old digital meat thermometer and used that and it told me I was at 210 which seemed much more accurate since I could tell I was just short of the boil. So, basically the thermometer I had been using was reading temps about 12 degrees higher than they actually were which means I mashed 60 minutes at probably closer to 138-140 degrees. This was very discouraging considering I had previously been pretty excited about being able to sustain the temp for an hour. I'm guessing a lot of starches from the oats likely didn't convert here. Damn.

Back to the boil...I put the lid on to try and kickstart it and within a few minutes I was at a slow boil. Finally! So I added my hop bag (which did nothing but float by the way, could't get it to sink) and started my timer. Well, a few minutes in the boil died. I had to put the lid back on to kickstart again and same result within a few minutes. Now I didn't know what to do. I decided to move the kettle over a little in order to use two burners. I didn't think it would do much because in order to get it to sit on top of a second burner, I was also removing a good amount of surface contact away from the original burner but surprisingly it gave me a few degrees boost to get the job done. Now I restarted my boil timer. Couple issues here...when I say boil I mean like a 212.3 degree boil. It is about as gentle as a boil as you've ever seen. Second, the initial 3 oz of hops I added ended up sitting in the kettle about 20 minutes longer than I planned since I had to keep restarting the timer. I'm worried this will add bitterness.

Once boil was over, I used a bunch of ice and cold water in my bath tub to cool it. This took FOREVER. I had finished with about 4 gallons after the boil where I previously had about 19 quarts. Losing just three quarts of water in all that time on the stove should tell you how vigorous of a boil I had going . I tried to keep stirring it every so often and taking temps with my digital thermometer but I just couldn't seem to get it down. Even after an hour it was at like 80 so I decided to just siphon it all into my carboy and top it off with a gallon of room temp water and pitch my yeast.

I did rehydrate my yeast but not sure if I did it right. I did as follows:

Poured 8 oz clean water into a sauce pan and heated to a boil, once it hit a boil I poured it back into a sanitized liquid measuring cup and covered with saran wrap. Let it sit until it got to about 105 degrees. This took forever too, ended up having to make a second ice bath in my sink. Once it got to around 105 I sprinkled both packets of yeast on top then let it sit for 15 minutes. Then I stirred it up into a cream and let sit a little while longer. After that I topped it off with cold filtered water from my brita to knock the temp down. Once it got to about 80 I poured it all directly into my carboy. Shook it up as much as I could and now have it sitting downstairs with a blowoff.

TLDR?

Mashed an hour at 138 due to faulty thermometer.
Grain bag ripped and I estimate 1/3 to 1/2 cup of grain got into the kettle.
Hops sat in kettle about an extra 20 minutes before actually achieving a true unattended boil.
My "boil" was as gentle as can be.


How ****ed am I?

Here is the filter bag I used for the grain.

According to my hydrometer the original gravity before pitching yeast was about 1.080 but Brewers Friend told me it should have been closer to 1.091 if not higher.

Am I likely going to end up with an astringent, dry, bitter, light bodied stout?

 

[pablosbrewing]

It was then that I realized that at some point the filter bag had ripped open on the bottom.

I can highly recommend Wilser's BIAB bags - no more ripped bags with these http://biabbags.webs.com/