fermenting with homemade dried kveik

[NeverDie]

You've obviously not read about kveik! This stuff is awesome. Ferments at a hilariously fast rate and prefer extreme temps. It can be used as a lager yeast at at lower temperatures (20-25 Celsius) and there is next to no lagering period. It can be dried in the oven. It loves to be under pitched. Read up and try it.

What temperature do you set the oven at?

 

[Seamonkey84]

No I didn’t read about this yeast until after my post, it is fairly impressive with its resistance. So far, for the past four batches I’ve made, I’ve been happy culturing the 1388 yeast by splitting my mini BOMMs.

 

[NeverDie]

You've obviously not read about kveik! This stuff is awesome. Ferments at a hilariously fast rate and prefer extreme temps. It can be used as a lager yeast at at lower temperatures (20-25 Celsius) and there is next to no lagering period. It can be dried in the oven. It loves to be under pitched. Read up and try it.

The lowest temperatu my oven will do is 125F. Is that too hot for drying purposes? I'm guessing maybe so.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My point was that kveik has been historically dried and used again and again and fermented very hot, and that there wasn't much problems with contamination, so it's very likely that the yeast got used to such treatment.

The comparison to modern commercial yeast is not valid as this yeast did not go through this type of treatment for centuries.

You're trying to infer that kveik is somehow intrinsically resistant to contamination? I think there's some truth to that, but not enough to forego sanitary practices when propagating a culture.

From my understanding, kveik was traditionally harvested from kräusen of beer that went through the normal process of being boiled (reducing or eliminating wild microbes). That's exactly what I suggested that the OP do -- harvest from a fermentation with sanitized ingredients, rather than harvest from a fermentation with wild microbes (in this case unpasteurized honey and/or unpasteurized water).

IMO, both the aggressive nature of the kveik strains and the top-cropping harvesting method are the factors that help avoid (but not fully eliminate) contamination.
For example if you pitch a mildly contaminated culture and then harvest at high kräusen (in what, like an hour?), you'll quite possibly not harvest any of the contaminants. However, if you use the cake from a contaminated batch, you're harvesting all of the contaminants, and those microbes have had a much greater opportunity to multiply.

Hope we're on the same page.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

The lowest temperatu my oven will do is 125F. Is that too hot for drying purposes? I'm guessing maybe so.

Just do the lowest setting and keep the door a little open. That should do it. Honestly I just put it on some baking paper, put the baking paper into an empty clean Fv bucket. Seal it and wait a week. Works like a charm.

 

[NeverDie]

Fv bucket.

God, I feel ignorant. What exactly is an "Fv bucket," and how does the yeast dry in such a thing if it is sealed?

Whatever it is that you're doing, I'd like to try it. After all, you're Norwegian. That gives you have instant credibility.

 

[Blacksmith1]

You could also get a dehydrator like is used for jerky and use that.

 

[NeverDie]

You could also get a dehydrator like is used for jerky and use that.

It seems they go to 130F, or higher: https://www.google.com/search?q=how.....69i57j0l4.5483j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[RPh_Guy]

FV usually means Fermentation Vessel

 

[NeverDie]

Got it. I'll try sealing up fresh yeast in a big box with desiccants then. If his worked, then this should work even better.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

God, I feel ignorant. What exactly is an "Fv bucket," and how does the yeast dry in such a thing if it is sealed?

Whatever it is that you're doing, I'd like to try it. After all, you're Norwegian. That gives you have instant credibility.

Haha credibility? I don't know about that. I just told you what I have done and what has worked for me. I am by no means a kveik expert! I've only used it 3 times. Last time Iade an summit mandarina Bavaria pale ale with sweet orange from the HB store, some orange zest and some orange peel in the "fermentation vessel" the last 3 days of fermentation. I didn't have any means of keeping it at 38 Celsius so I pitched it and packed the fv in some sleepingbags. It was done in 4 days. It's carbonating Now but the sample was really promising. I kept some of the yeast in liquid form and dried some of it like I've done before. Pics below

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

I should mention that I misspoke before. I don't fully seal the bucket, I just place the lid on top. Let's a small portion of air in but (hopefully) nothing else

 

[Miraculix]

I should mention that I misspoke before. I don't fully seal the bucket, I just place the lid on top. Let's a small portion of air in but (hopefully) nothing else

Does your dried kveik also develop done dark/blackish spots when dried? Nothing fuzzy or hairy like mold, just dark spots..

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

Does your dried kveik also develop done dark/blackish spots when dried? Nothing fuzzy or hairy like mold, just dark spots..

Not that I've seen, no. I've been using voss kveik. Picture?

 

[Maylar]

I've been saving liquid yeast slurry in jars for years. You don't need to dry it out, re-hydrate or if its relatively fresh, even make a starter. Just chuck it in.
I'm thinking that drying out yeast on a piece of wood was a traditional method because they didn't have mason jars and a refrigerator to keep it in?
If you want to use old methods that's cool, the new microbes that are introduced may provide some different and interesting flavors.

I think that this is the most profound post in this thread.

 

[NeverDie]

I think that this is the most profound post in this thread.

Well, how long does it keep for without resorting to a starter? 3 months?

Also, if you're chucking the whole thing in, aren't there generational issues to consider? i.e. you're better off using generation 0 instead of generation n>0, since contaminants accumulate with each generation.

On the other hand, I suppose the slurry could be divvied up by pipette so that the generational issue is equivalent.

----------------

I have a Hothead test batch fermenting now using Bray's formulation. It wouldn't start at 70F, so I raised the temp a bit and now it's rolling. Bray uses 72F, but I'm raising it up to 85F, which is still well below its upper-bound. I have an outside insulated shed which maintains a nearly constant 85F inside at this time of year, so if the test batch works I'll try a large batch of Hothead there sometime soon.

BTW, I found out the answer to something that had always puzzled me: it turns out that the manufacturer's stated temperature range for a yeast is strictly the range at which the yeast best reproduces. It says nothing about the best range for converting honey into alcohol, let alone what the consequences are for fermenting at particular temperatures. That's a topic that the yeast manufacturers are unfortunately almost always totally silent on.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

Well, how long does it keep for without resorting to a starter? 3 months?

Also, if you're chucking the whole thing in, aren't there generational issues to consider? i.e. you're better off using generation 0 instead of generation n>0, since contaminants accumulate with each generation.

On the other hand, I suppose the slurry could be divvied up by pipette so that the generational issue is equivalent.

----------------

I have a Hothead test batch fermenting now using Bray's formulation. It wouldn't start at 70F, so I raised the temp a bit and now it's rolling. Bray uses 72F, but I'm raising it up to 85F, which is still well below its upper-bound. I have an outside insulated shed which maintains a nearly constant 85F inside at this time of year, so if the test batch works I'll try a large batch of Hothead there sometime soon.

BTW, I found out the answer to something that had always puzzled me: it turns out that the manufacturer's stated temperature range for a yeast is strictly the range at which the yeast best reproduces. It says nothing about the best range for converting honey into alcohol, let alone what the consequences are for fermenting at particular temperatures. That's a topic that the yeast manufacturers are unfortunately almost always totally silent on.

To answer you first question. I had a bit of yeast in the fridge for a year. The only thing I did was take a bit of the malt from the mash in a bottle and shucked a small portion of the yeast in when I started the boil. By the time I had cooked the hops that plastic bottle was rock hard. Amazing stuff!

 

[NeverDie]

To answer you first question. I had a bit of yeast in the fridge for a year. The only thing I did was take a bit of the malt from the mash in a bottle and shucked a small portion of the yeast in when I started the boil. By the time I had cooked the hops that plastic bottle was rock hard. Amazing stuff!

Your yeast has a strange color it. It's not the light beige cream color I'm used to seeing.

 

[NeverDie]

Got it. I'll try sealing up fresh yeast in a big box with desiccants then. If his worked, then this should work even better.

I'm about to start this experiment. I have a roughly 60 quart airtight box that I've sprayed with star san and let air dry. I plan to put the parchment paper and a porcelain plate in the oven for about an hour at 400F (the parchment paper is rated to 420F), which should (I hope) kill anything on it. I'm presently separating the yeast cream from the "beer" from a fresh Omega Hothead packet, which I've poured into a star san sanitized beaker, and that separation is happening in the refrigerator. I have two fresh desiccant canisters that I'll be putting in the box before sealing it up. They haven't been sanitized per se, but I don't plan for there to be a breeze inside the box. I'll also put a non-sanitized humidity sensor in the box to report on humidity levels. It can't measure below 10% humidity, but it's what I currently have available.

Once the cream separates from the beer, I'll spread some of it on the sanitized parchment paper supported by the plate, move it to the box, and seal it all up for the yeast to dry at room temperature.

Sound good?

Once I'm sure the yeast is dry, I'll test it for re-animation using GoFerm to see if it behaves as good and ferments as well as the liquid yeast that made it.

I hope the above will be good enough to avoid contamination. If this fails, then the next step might be to sanitize the desiccant pellets in the oven at 220F (maybe I could go a little higher, but it melts at 325F) before adding them directly to the box with no canister, and perhaps using a smaller sealed box but keeping the whole thing refrigerated to 35F during the drying process. Doing that might help reduce bacteria multiplying on the cream during the drying process. And, if that doesn't work, then I don't know what will. The only contamination source I can think of would be airborne particles, which hopefully will be small in number compared to the yeast population that's being dried. I suppose the big vulnerability is multiplying wild organisms on the yeast cream while it dries. So, to close that window of vulnerability, finding a faster way to dry might be worth looking into if this first attempt fails. Perhaps a cylinder of dry, food grade CO2 blown over it would considerably speed up the rate of drying without costing much. I'd prefer something cheaper though: maybe an aquarium pump, which first pumps its air through desiccant and then through a sanitary filter before being blown over the yeast cream would work as well. All this requires additional work to set up though, which is why I'm leaving it out of this first test. With luck, I won't need to take these extra "Plan B" steps.

 

[NeverDie]

A bit of trivia: out of 100ml of Omega Hothead yeast solution from the packet, after allowing it to settle, only about 10ml is yeast cream plus whatever other solid ditritus was either packaged with it or developed afterward.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

Your yeast has a strange color it. It's not the light beige cream color I'm used to seeing.

I just skimmed the top layer of the barrel with a spoon. Easy bottom harvesting.
That pic is from minutes after.

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

I'm about to start this experiment. I have a roughly 60 quart airtight box that I've sprayed with star san and let air dry. I plan to put the parchment paper and a porcelain plate in the oven for about an hour at 400F (the parchment paper is rated to 420F), which should (I hope) kill anything on it. I'm presently separating the yeast cream from the "beer" from a fresh Omega Hothead packet, which I've poured into a star san sanitized beaker, and that separation is happening in the refrigerator. I have two fresh desiccant canisters that I'll be putting in the box before sealing it up. They haven't been sanitized per se, but I don't plan for there to be a breeze inside the box. I'll also put a non-sanitized humidity sensor in the box to report on humidity levels. It can't measure below 10% humidity, but it's what I currently have available.

Once the cream separates from the beer, I'll spread some of it on the sanitized parchment paper supported by the plate, move it to the box, and seal it all up for the yeast to dry at room temperature.

Sound good?

Once I'm sure the yeast is dry, I'll test it for re-animation using GoFerm to see if it behaves as good and ferments as well as the liquid yeast that made it.

I hope the above will be good enough to avoid contamination. If this fails, then the next step might be to sanitize the desiccant pellets in the oven at 220F (maybe I could go a little higher, but it melts at 325F) before adding them directly to the box with no canister, and perhaps using a smaller sealed box but keeping the whole thing refrigerated to 35F during the drying process. Doing that might help reduce bacteria multiplying on the cream during the drying process. And, if that doesn't work, then I don't know what will. The only contamination source I can think of would be airborne particles, which hopefully will be small in number compared to the yeast population that's being dried. I suppose the big vulnerability is multiplying wild organisms on the yeast cream while it dries. So, to close that window of vulnerability, finding a faster way to dry might be worth looking into if this first attempt fails. Perhaps a cylinder of dry, food grade CO2 blown over it would considerably speed up the rate of drying without costing much. I'd prefer something cheaper though: maybe an aquarium pump, which first pumps its air through desiccant and then through a sanitary filter before being blown over the yeast cream would work as well. All this requires additional work to set up though, which is why I'm leaving it out of this first test. With luck, I won't need to take these extra "Plan B" steps.

Sounds great. I'm thinking it's a big step up from the original way to dry kveik yeast where they used a wooden stick with holes or a ring of wood, dipped it in the slurry and then left it to dry until needed in a barn somewhere
But really... That method worked for many many years so...

 

[Julian Høstan Urrea]

Well, how long does it keep for without resorting to a starter? 3 months?

Also, if you're chucking the whole thing in, aren't there generational issues to consider? i.e. you're better off using generation 0 instead of generation n>0, since contaminants accumulate with each generation.

On the other hand, I suppose the slurry could be divvied up by pipette so that the generational issue is equivalent.

----------------

I have a Hothead test batch fermenting now using Bray's formulation. It wouldn't start at 70F, so I raised the temp a bit and now it's rolling. Bray uses 72F, but I'm raising it up to 85F, which is still well below its upper-bound. I have an outside insulated shed which maintains a nearly constant 85F inside at this time of year, so if the test batch works I'll try a large batch of Hothead there sometime soon.

BTW, I found out the answer to something that had always puzzled me: it turns out that the manufacturer's stated temperature range for a yeast is strictly the range at which the yeast best reproduces. It says nothing about the best range for converting honey into alcohol, let alone what the consequences are for fermenting at particular temperatures. That's a topic that the yeast manufacturers are unfortunately almost always totally silent on.

Also! I used like a small spoons worth. Extreme underpitching. Had agressive activity after about 4 hours. I used a blow off tube.

 

[NeverDie]

Update: I grabbed 5ml of the 10ml Hothead yeast cream. 5ml is so little that I simply spread it out very thinly on the parchment paper, and therefore I expect it will dry quickly. I can only hope that later releasing such a thin layer of dried yeast from the parchment paper won't be difficult. If it is, though, maybe I'll just cut up the parchment paper into squares and then simply dip a square into GoFerm to add the yeast when needed.

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back: well, putting it right away into a sealed box is probably a bad strategy. Even with the desiccant, the humidity sensor showed that the humidity kept going up until finally, at 68% RH, significantly above ambient RH, I pulled the lid off to release the trapped moisture.

 

[madscientist451]

Well, how long does it keep for without resorting to a starter? 3 months?

Also, if you're chucking the whole thing in, aren't there generational issues to consider? i.e. you're better off using generation 0 instead of generation n>0, since contaminants accumulate with each generation.

On the other hand, I suppose the slurry could be divvied up by pipette so that the generational issue is equivalent.

How long before you need to make a starter?
I'd say a month or two. Beyond that, I'd probably make a starter.
If its a high gravity beer, I always make a starter.
With the slurry/jar method, you can make a starter, pitch half of it and then return the rest to the jar for storage. So the slurry is only saved from the first brew. After 5-6 runs I usually start over with new yeast, but not always, I have lager and saison yeasts I've been running for a few years.

 

[NeverDie]

The RH is now 34%, and so there may be residual moisture, but there's no liquid left per se. The yeast looks dry, and due to shrinkage most of the yeast has already detached itself from the parchment paper. The longer I wait, the dryer it will become. Not sure what level of dryness I should wait for though before pitching it into GoFerm to test whether it re-animates to "as good as new" yeast.

 

[NeverDie]

Answering my own question, it appears that 8% moisture content is what I should be aiming for:

Dry yeast is fresh compressed yeast that has been pressed and dried until the moisture content is only about 8% which makes the yeast dormant. The granules only become active again when mixed with a warm liquid. The advantage of dry yeast is it has a much longer shelf life than fresh yeast and does not need to be refrigerated.

Read more: https://www.joyofbaking.com/Yeast.html#ixzz5qZLRWL52
​

Furthermore, commercial vendors dry yeast to a moisture content of 8% using a temperature of 42-50F with air at a dewpoint of 12-18F (cf. https://www.bryair.com/technical-articles/drying-yeast-using-desiccant-dehumidification/ )

 

[NeverDie]

Surprisingly, I couldn't get lower than 16% RH at 70F within the current sealed setup. However, I have 7.5 pounds of additional desiccant on order and arriving late today. I expect the extra desiccant will help drive the RH lower so that I can finish drying the Hothead yeast enough to finally reach commercial dry yeast specs.

 

[Maylar]

And this is easier than using liquid yeast?