Fermenting Temperature?

[G2sat2576]

I am brewing an all-grain kit Dry Dock Paragon Apricot Blonde i purchased from Northern Brewer on my G30 Connect Grainfather. The suggested fermentation schedule is 1-2 weeks primary, 2 weeks in secondary. I am using Wyeast #1056 American Ale Yeast (optimum temperature 60-72 degrees F). At which temperatures should i ferment at in primary and secondary? How long should each last? Is there a general rule of thumb for temperature to ferment at?

 

[Mr. Vern]

The pitch temperature should be on the cool side IMO. This is a clean yeast, anything in that range will work, fermenting in the lower range is supposed to add some mild citrusy flavor which may work well with the recipe.

I just ran a shandy at 64F for the same reason.

As far as timing, that varies. "Watch the gravity" is the consensus however I have issues with grabbing a good enough volume for my hydrometer. Visual Approach: I wait for krausen to drop then I wait 2-3 more days before transfer. Once off the yeast cake you can secondary or condition as desired. Too many variables for a Rule of Thumb beyond 1-2 weeks for primary. I usually check FG but sometimes I do not, and always check gravity before bottling.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Wyeast information would suggest it's best at 60 to 66, so, if you have temperature control, why not set it for 63 for both.
You should tell people you're adding apricot puree to avoid all the advice about secondary fermentation that you didn't ask for.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

1056 works fast and is very forgiving, as suggested, the 64F will work great and the yeast should finish up in two weeks of primary.

Many don't secondary anymore as yeast health is so good now. Just package after the two weeks in primary. Using a secondary only exposes your beer to more oxygen and the potential for infection.

You should tell people you're adding apricot puree to avoid all the advice about secondary fermentation that you didn't ask for.

^ , if adding puree (not extract) then disregard the advice to avoid secondary

 

[ncbrewer]

Many don't secondary anymore as yeast health is so good now. Just package after the two weeks in primary. Using a secondary only exposes your beer to more oxygen and the potential for infection

+1
Generally transferring to secondary has no benefit with the yeast quality today. And it has some potential for problems as Cauldfield noted.

For fermentation temperature, the book Yeast recommends holding temperature steady until the last 1/3 - 1/4 of fermentation. Then raise the temperature by 4 - 10 degrees F over one to two days.

 

[hotbeer]

I wouldn't worry about moving to a secondary either. And I wouldn't worry about leaving it in the primary for longer than two weeks either. I've gone over 6 weeks to let one of my beers clean up, and it was one of the best so far.

All my beers I've been very happy with were 4 weeks in the primary before bottling. The two batches I was most disappointed with (but still decent) were bottled at two weeks or less.

To the original question, I'd pitch when I got into the temp range they specify for optimum. And then I'd keep it within that range making note of their note that says....

Mild citrus notes develop with cooler 60-66F (15-19C) fermentations

 

[DuncB]

You will need the secondary as you are adding apricot puree after primary and you don't want to put that on top of a big thick yeast cake. Steady temp in the recommended range, remembering that the ferment will raise the temp a few degrees.

 

[hout17]

Dry Dock's Apricot Blonde is a phenomenal beer. If you pull this off, it will be very good. I go down to the brewery every once in a while and grab one on tap (pre-covid). I need to get back down there.

I second the secondary for the apricot puree addition.

 

[DannyBoy270]

How long should each last? Is there a general ru

I typically always roll with 68F for ale yeast and 10 days to ferment out; but thats just me.

 

[GoeHaarden]

you are adding apricot puree after primary and you don't want to put that on top of a big thick yeast cake.

Why not?

 

[hotbeer]

You will need the secondary as you are adding apricot puree after primary and you don't want to put that on top of a big thick yeast cake. Steady temp in the recommended range, remembering that the ferment will raise the temp a few degrees.

Why not?

I too have to ask why not leave it in the primary... I hope that's what @GoeHaarden asking too since I quoted him just for backup.

The only reason I could come up with for moving to a secondary is if the volume in the primary won't handle the addition without spewing out the top if things get too active again.

Otherwise, why would you rely on the few yeast in the transferred beer to ferment the new stuff? Seems you'd want some of those sleeping yeast on the bottom to wake up and join the party.

Or is that not how it works? This is a teaching moment for you don't just claim off flavors and ruin as most folklore claims. I suppose if there was a specific flavor trying to be duplicated then maybe. Does too many yeast feasting on the puree eliminate too much of the flavor trying to be imparted to it?

I'm very much a noob to this too and trying to learn.

 

[Kickass]

Regarding temperature:
The specified temp is for the fermenting wort, not the ambient temp around it. In many cases of active fermentation, the wort is 5-10*F warmer than its surrounding environment.

As far as secondary, personally, I wouldn’t, even if there’s purée to add. I’d add the purée directly to the primary at high krausen. If you’re worried about clarity, it’ll settle out all the same with cooler temps and/or time.

 

[GoeHaarden]

I too have to ask why not leave it in the primary... I hope that's what @GoeHaarden asking too since I quoted him just for backup.

I was kind of asking the same thing. More so looking for a rationale for his/her statement. I think a "don't" or "can't" statement requires an explaination to be helpful. But I'll back you up!

Either way, I don't use secondaries. To each their own though...

 

[DuncB]

Trying to clarify but not make it gospel. If I was going to add the fruit into my primary I'd do it before the primary ferment finishes so say 10 or so points off final then the yeast is nice and active. If I was going to let it all finish which it most likely would have done after 2 weeks then I'd rather it just relied on some yeast that got transferred across when it was racked to secondary. There are a lot of stasis and dead yeast cells in the cake at the bottom.
The few cells will soon kick off given a nice supply of glucose in the fruit.
In reality I don't use a secondary because I drop the majority of the yeast out of the bottom of the conical before adding the fruit because if it's settled it's not really that active anyway.

 

[jerrylotto]

Off topic but I always wondered how you calculate ABV with any significant additions of fermentable stuff after you measure your OG. Adding more sugars alone would confuse the issue but I guess that you could compensate mathematically knowing the amount, but adding something complex like fruit puree... maybe you check the gravity before and after the addition to get an "OG adjustment value"?

 

[GoeHaarden]

Trying to clarify but not make it gospel. If I was going to add the fruit into my primary I'd do it before the primary ferment finishes so say 10 or so points off final then the yeast is nice and active. If I was going to let it all finish which it most likely would have done after 2 weeks then I'd rather it just relied on some yeast that got transferred across when it was racked to secondary. There are a lot of stasis and dead yeast cells in the cake at the bottom.
The few cells will soon kick off given a nice supply of glucose in the fruit.
In reality I don't use a secondary because I drop the majority of the yeast out of the bottom of the conical before adding the fruit because if it's settled it's not really that active anyway.

Gotcha. I'm just not sure you'd be able to tell the difference aside from the oxidation

 

[jerrylotto]

The few cells will soon kick off given a nice supply of glucose in the fruit.

Actually, fruit purees have significant content of sucrose, glucose, and fructose and may have added sucrose as well. Some of these saccharides could be brand new to your yeast (in a given batch) and will likely kick off some additional biochemical pathways in your wort.

 

[hout17]

Gotcha. I'm just not sure you'd be able to tell the difference aside from the oxidation

I'm also not so sure I agree with this statement either considering the puree will kick up fermentation again.

 

[KDogg]

I just finished brewing this baby, and bottled it Monday.

I split the batch to see the difference and measure that difference of 5G split to 2 2.5G each. Here's the stats:

Fermentation temp:
Constant 67-68°F

OG: 1.046
FG:
1.006 (batch 1) 5.25%abv
1.004 (batch 2) 5.51%abv

Batch 1 (AB B1)
Taken off yeast into secondary

Batch 2 (AB B2)
Kept in primary with yeast and apricot Puree

Notice the primary batch 2 had an increase in Abv expected due to length of time sitting in the sludge.

I evenly split everything after that (sugar water and tincture) bottling batches separately.

I will give it 2 weeks to see "which batch tastes best!"

Image:
Right Batch 1
Left Batch 2

 

[GoeHaarden]

I'm also not so sure I agree with this statement either considering the puree will kick up fermentation again.

You don't think fermentation will happen in a secondary as well? How do you think bottle conditioning happens?

If you're not aging for a prolonged period, try adding your additions to the primary. I bet you'd be surprised...

 

[D.B.Moody]

Batch 1 (AB B1)
Taken off yeast into secondary
Batch 2 (AB B2)
Kept in primary with yeast and apricot Puree

This is a great! Someone who has read the instructions, has brewed the kit, and was curoius about the effect(s) of doing a secondary.
I assume you added the puree to the fermenter 2-3 days after fermentation started as per instructions. The instructions also said 1-2 weeks primary and 2 weeks secondary. How long was primary at transfer to secondary? Was secondary two weeks?
I gather your impression is that the puree is at the bottom with the trub and is left behind at transfer. Did you transfer using the fermenter's spigot? I am assuming you didn't try to control O2.
Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[hout17]

You don't think fermentation will happen in a secondary as well? How do you think bottle conditioning happens?

If you're not aging for a prolonged period, try adding your additions to the primary. I bet you'd be surprised...

You misinterpreted my statement. I just don't think oxidation will be a big deal using a secondary for the puree since you will be basically starting up a second fermentation. I don't think you'll have to worry a whole lot because enough fermentation will be happening to use up any disolved oxygen from the exposure.

Also to clarify I was specifically replying to your statement regarding oxidation.

 

[GoeHaarden]

You misinterpreted my statement. I just don't think oxidation will be a big deal using a secondary for the puree since you will be basically starting up a second fermentation. I don't think you'll have to worry a whole lot because enough fermentation will be happening to use up any disolved oxygen from the exposure.

I see what you're saying now. I still don't think you'd be able to tell the difference (enough to like/dislike one over the other). Or that putting fruit in the primary would make the beer undesirable.

Maybe my palette is not very well trained, or maybe I'm just honest with myself...

Either way, to each their own.

 

[hout17]

I see what you're saying now. I still don't think you'd be able to tell the difference (enough to like/dislike one over the other). Or that putting fruit in the primary would make the beer undesirable.

Maybe my palette is not very well trained, or maybe I'm just honest with myself...

Either way, to each their own.

Again you misinterpreted my statement. I don't think you would tell the difference either which is what I was implying regarding the oxidation piece.

I also don't see a problem adding it to primary although I suspect you may lose some flavor and the beer would finish drier but this is a never ending rabbit hole of debate.

Also, let's not get to bent out of shape lol and I hope the OP brews a great Apricot Blonde.

 

[VikeMan]

Off topic but I always wondered how you calculate ABV with any significant additions of fermentable stuff after you measure your OG. Adding more sugars alone would confuse the issue but I guess that you could compensate mathematically knowing the amount, but adding something complex like fruit puree... maybe you check the gravity before and after the addition to get an "OG adjustment value"?

You can do the math, if you have information about a fruit's (or puree's) water, sugar, and soluble non-sugar carbs content. There was an article, "Cipher Fruit Beers" in the May/June 2021 BYO about this, which can be read online with an electronic subscription (or whatever BYO calls it):
https://byo.com/article/ciphering-fruit-beers/
Or, you can avoid the math and use a calculator like the FruitCalc spreadsheet, which has inputs for your base beer specs and dropdown menus for additions. It can be downloaded here:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/library/
Other calculators I've seen do things like ignore the water added by the fruit, treat all the gravity added by the fruit as fermentable, and/or predict ABV increases for every fruit, without even asking the user for information about the base beer. Anyway, that's why I built FruitCalc.

ETA: FruitCalc also handles some other additions, like corn sugar, table sugar, and water dilution, and can be used as "boiloff" calculator.

 

[KDogg]

This is a great! Someone who has read the instructions, has brewed the kit, and was curoius about the effect(s) of doing a secondary.

Haha, yes indeed, I find that to be most helpful. At least I can say I read the recipe. Yes I kept good notes and followed carefully. I have started splitting my last few batches with intent to get insight into changes and impact while not completely ruining any full batches with any experiment I may do.

I assume you added the puree to the fermenter 2-3 days after fermentation started as per instructions.

Exactly correct. Within <16 hours of pitching yeast I had bubbles in primary and exactly 48 hours after pitching the yeast did I add the puree directly into primary big mouth bubbler.

The instructions also said 1-2 weeks primary and 2 weeks secondary. How long was primary at transfer to secondary?

Timeline:
5/23/2021 brew complete
5/24/2021 bubbles
5/25/2021 puree added
5/30/2021 split the batch through spigot
6/1/2021 no bubbles even after split
6/4/2021 gravity measured which did not change from now until final gravity reading
6/14/2021 bottling day

Was secondary two weeks?

Correct 5/30 to 6/14

I gather your impression is that the puree is at the bottom with the trub and is left behind at transfer. Did you transfer using the fermenter's spigot?

Correct. Yes the secondary was a clean transfer into second bubbler with only tinfoil on top for less air exchange.

I am assuming you didn't try to control O2.

Please let us know how it turns out.

Limited options for me with 2 wide mouths only.

Absolutely! It's fun to have interest.

 

[GoeHaarden]

Again you misinterpreted my statement. I don't think you would tell the difference either which is what I was implying regarding the oxidation piece.

I also don't see a problem adding it to primary although I suspect you may lose some flavor and the beer would finish drier but this is a never ending rabbit hole of debate.

Also, let's not get to bent out of shape lol and I hope the OP brews a great Apricot Blonde.

Hah. No worries buddy. No ones getting bent here. Tone is a little difficult to read in text. I was just looking for a rationale. I shall remain dissatisfied...

 

[D.B.Moody]

I have started splitting my last few batches with intent to get insight
It's fun to have interest.

Outstanding.
I have also been experimenting, but by brewing separate batches to compare. My interest is the effect(s) of doing a secondary. I recently posted some early results here: What does a secondary fermenter do? You may find it interesting.

 

[G2sat2576]

When adding the apricot puree, do you simply pour it into the primary and reseal the fermenter? I am assuming sanitizing is essential, can lid (puree), etc.

 

[VikeMan]

When adding the apricot puree, do you simply pour it into the primary and reseal the fermenter? I am assuming sanitizing is essential, can lid (puree), etc.

I always spritz the can (and opener) with starsan solution. However you add it, i.e. add the puree to the primary or add the beer to the puree (in a secondary), do it gently to minimize aeration.

 

[KDogg]

When adding the apricot puree, do you simply pour it into the primary and reseal the fermenter? I am assuming sanitizing is essential, can lid (puree), etc.

Honestly I didn't spend a ton of time this round ensuring it was sanitized, but just ran those areas and opener under hot water and tried to be quick about the time the lid of fermenter was off and speed and efficiency in which I poured puree directly into middle of wort without splashing. Was like an Olympic diver

 

[G2sat2576]

Ok. So i am on day eight of fermentation and SG is tinkering between 1.008 and 1.009. I also see activity in the airlock. How long can i let it sit in the fermenter? Until i see no activity in the airlock and the SG is stable for three days?

 

[KDogg]

Are you planning on doing a secondary?
I left mine (half) in primary for 3 weeks and the other half in secondary for 2 which clarified nicely - both bottled at the same time.
Patience, with this one you are in no rush. 8 days is early regardless of what you plan on next imo.
Yes gravity should read consistently for at least 48 hours.

 

[G2sat2576]

No secondary. Throughout the entire primary should i keep it at the optimal temperature? I have my fermenter connected to a glycol chiller at 64 degrees.

 

[KDogg]

Going by recipe instructions and timing, it does call for a pretty long secondary, and the temperature you referenced depending on your yeast choice certainly lines up.

Do you have prior similar batches you can compare your results with the asks and recipe requirements of this one?

If you add the primary and secondary max timings that it states, you could be up to 6 weeks in total (1-2 wk primary, 2-4 secondary).

I think this one needs the extra time and I did a total of half that time (low end), which I consider it to have turned out pretty good.

 

[G2sat2576]

Going by recipe instructions and timing, it does call for a pretty long secondary, and the temperature you referenced depending on your yeast choice certainly lines up.

Do you have prior similar batches you can compare your results with the asks and recipe requirements of this one?

If you add the primary and secondary max timings that it states, you could be up to 6 weeks in total (1-2 wk primary, 2-4 secondary).

I think this one needs the extra time and I did a total of half that time (low end), which I consider it to have turned out pretty good.

I do not have any similar batches to compare results. Ok i will ride this one out. Thanks for the input!

 

[hotbeer]

Does the beer in the fermenter look like anything you want to drink yet?

I'm not big on real cloudy brews with lots of stuff suspended in them. So I wait till the beer looks like something I want to drink. 4, 5 and even 6 weeks in the primary won't hurt most beers.

It is true they clean up some with carbonation and conditioning, but....

Be patient!


I'm on day 23 with an NEIPA and might bottle this coming Sunday.

 

[G2sat2576]

Does the beer in the fermenter look like anything you want to drink yet?

I'm not big on real cloudy brews with lots of stuff suspended in them. So I wait till the beer looks like something I want to drink. 4, 5 and even 6 weeks in the primary won't hurt most beers.

It is true they clean up some with carbonation and conditioning, but....

Be patient!


I'm on day 23 with an NEIPA and might bottle this coming Sunday.

Sounds good. Sounds like i might to get an extra fermenter so i dont have to wait so long to brew again.

 

[KDogg]

I have 2 simple wide mouth bubblers and certainly helps to scratch any brewing itch I may get.

What would three allow me to do...hmmm

 

[G2sat2576]

I do not have any similar batches to compare results. Ok i will ride this one out. Thanks for the input!

Did you pull samples along the way? Going on 4 weeks in primary on 7/19/21. Think its a good time to keg at that time or wait additional couple of weeks?