fermentation problems

[jsbiral]

Hi everyone. Although I've been brewing for a few years now, I'm still a noob (only brewed 4 or 5 batches) so I'm sorry if this doesn't contain enough info. Last Saturday (5/14) I brewed an Oktoberfest. Starting gravity was 1.065. Once the brew was finished, I pitched the dry yeast packet and moved the primary into the lagering fridge where the liquid temps were at or around 51*. The instructions say that the optimal temp for fermentation is between 53 and 59* but I cannot get the temps in the fridge any warmer. At any rate, two days go by with no activity in teh airlock but towards the end of that second day, I notice that there is bubbling. Day's three, four, five, six and seven show no activity but, I wasn't really sweating it knwoing that the temps are pretty low and the yeast may still be working, just a little slower. Today I went and took a hydrometer reading and it's only 1.064. My question for everyone is, how long is too long for the beer to sit there with no fermentation? Is it okay still or is there a risk of infection? I have a Johnson Controls thermostat on order but it'll be Wednesday or Thursday before I get it. I hate to remove the beer from t he cool temps but I'm not sure there's any other way to get the fermentation going until that thermostat comes in. Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[osagedr]

What yeast did you use? Did you follow the manufacturer's instructions for pitching? What temperature was the wort when you pitched the yeast? How big was your batch?

 

[jsbiral]

I'm kicking myself a little because I saved everything but the yeast packet. I can't remember what brand the yeast was and unfortunately, as previously mentioned, have already thrown the empty packet away. I did not rehydrate the yeast as sometimes suggested because I've never had problems with that in the past. The wort was 55* when I pitched as recommended by the instructions for the kit. This is a five gallon batch. Thanks for any assistance you can offer.

 

[osagedr]

(a) are you sure your hydrometer is correct? Just as a test, see what it reads in distilled water (tap or spring is close enough if you don't have distilled handy). It should be 1.000. It's a long shot but possible that your beer has fermented out and you just don't know it.

(b) if your hydrometer reading is correct then your yeast simply "didn't work." This is most likely what is happening. Aerate your wort as best you can (keeping everything sanitized of course). Pitch two packs of rehydrated dry yeast (I would use W 34/70 but S-23 or another proper lager yeast will work). Use two packs and follow the exact manufacturer's instructions (on their website or product sheet) for pitching.

Let us know how it goes. If anything you can go a bit cooler than 55. I've got a Rauchbier finishing up now that has moved from 1.059 to 1.020 in a week with W 34/70 at 46 degrees. I'll probably do a diacetyl rest tomorrow. Don't forget to do yours around 1.020 (just raise the temperature of your fermenter anywhere above 60 degrees; room temperature in general is fine). Good luck!

 

[BelgianKing]

You should remember that you are fermenting in cooler temps. In which your fermentation will be slower and longer. I did my 2nd Bock at 52*F and it took 25days to ferment out. Then lagered for 8 weeks at 36*F. No visible signs from the airlock either but my hydrometer and understanding the fermentation process let me know it still needed time. I would just leave it for another week then maybe take action. If you shake it up you might introduce oxygen into the beer and that could be bad. I still wouldnt pitch any yeast either. You may over-pitch and that could also be bad. Your yeast that came with the kit could be old, not handled properly or is working just fine.

In respects of letting your beer sit on the cake, well there has been many discussions on here debating that. What Ive taken is that you can keep it there till your ready to rack for secondary, lagering or bottling. Just as long as your temps are stable and no oxygen is exposed to your wonderful beer. I usually keep my lagers on for at least 3 weeks, ales for a month. Since ive made this the norm my beer has come out significantly better. Hope this helps. Cheers

 

[osagedr]

jsbiral you are in no danger whatsoever of overpitching by adding more yeast at this point, even if your initial yeast were active, which they clearly are not. 55 degrees is not particularly cool for fermentation unless you mistakenly were given an ale yeast.

It's plain as day you have no fermentation going on. Waiting another week will accomplish nothing. Also, you don't have "beer" right now, you have "wort" since no fermentation has taken place (it's your hydrometer and understanding of the fermentation proces that makes this obvious). Ergo, you want to aerate to give the yeast the oxygen they need to do their job.

 

[jsbiral]

Thaks for all of the advice everyone. I did verify my hydrometer reading was correct soI decided to repitch the yeast. All that the LHBS had was S-23 so that's what I went with. It said to sprinkle the dry yeast right into the wort so I pitched the two packets after giving it a good shaking. Hopefully that jumpstarts the fermentation process. I'll keep everyone updated. Thanks again for the help.

 

[rycov]

you also have to adjust your hydrometer readings for temperature, that could have been a little bit of it.

 

[jsbiral]

Rycov, thanks for the input. How do I go about doing that or is there a thread already established that goes over this? Thanks again!

 

[jsbiral]

Sorry Rycov, just did a quick search on the HBT forum and found a thread that explains it and also has a calculator. I pitched at 55* and the current temp is 50* so it doesn't affect the reading just yet but good info to know for future brews. Thanks!

 

[jsbiral]

Well, 48 hours since I re-pitched and still no visable signs of fermentation (i.e. - no bubbling) in the airlock. Is it too early to take another hydrometer reading or should I still be patient? Any other ideas to try? My Johnson Cintrols thermostat still isn't here but I expect it any day now, do you think the wort will be okay for a few more days?

 

[osagedr]

Wort still at 51? What does your hydrometer say?

 

[jsbiral]

When I checked the liquid temp today it was at 50* even. I haven't taken a hydrometer reading yet but I can do that shortly (need to put the kids to bed first). Will re-post as soon as I take the reading.

 

[jsbiral]

Okay, just checked the gravity again and it's still at 1.064. The temp was still at 50*. I'm wondering if the temp is simply too low for the yeast to do their job. Although the yeast packet says that it is good between 48-59* so maybe not. I hardly believe that I got three packets of "bad" yeast. Any additional advice?

 

[osagedr]

You've added enough fresh yeast for things to take off now. At this point I would take it out of the fridge and have a look in the morning to see whether you've got any activity. Nothing to lose now! Unless your wort is somehow unfermentable you should see activity soon. Once fermentation gets started pop it back in the fridge.

Sorry it's been a tough experience for you. Hang in there!

 

[jsbiral]

Okay, will do. Thanks for all of the assistance. If I do happen to get fermentation after taking it out of the fridge, would you suggest putting it back in or just leaving it out? Feels like putting it back in the fridge will just stop the fermentation but then again, maybe it will jump start the yeast and they will have enough activity to get me through until the Johnson Controls thermostat shows up.

 

[osagedr]

Okay, will do. Thanks for all of the assistance. If I do happen to get fermentation after taking it out of the fridge, would you suggest putting it back in or just leaving it out? Feels like putting it back in the fridge will just stop the fermentation but then again, maybe it will jump start the yeast and they will have enough activity to get me through until the Johnson Controls thermostat shows up.

You have lots of yeast in there now so if you get signs of fermentation I would pop it back in the fridge so the flavour profile is correct. I know it would be troubling given the struggles so far but you will have to trust the process and do what's best for your beer.

Keep us posted.

 

[jsbiral]

Well, it's been 14 days since I started seeing activity in the airlock. I took a hydrometer reading today and we're down from 1.065 to 1.034 so we're making progress but still not quite at the finished stage. The airlock was still fairly steadily bubbling before I took the reading tonight (a bubble every 7 or 8 seconds). I'm going to give it another week to see if I can't get the gravity down closer to the 1.015 finish it's supposed to be at and check again next week. I did finally get the Johnson controls thermometer a couple of days ago (the guy says he sent it but the post office never actually shipped it until he went back and inquired about it two weeks later) so I'll work on getting that installed tomorrow which should allow me to get the temp in the fridge up a degree or two to speed the fermentation up just a little. Thanks again for everyone's help!

 

[osagedr]

That is a very slow-moving beer. If 1.015 is your target FG then you should think about taking it out of the fridge for a diacetyl rest when at something like 1.023. Given your troubles with this batch I would err on the side of an early d-rest just to make sure you don't stall out. Glad to hear things are moving along!

 

[Yooper]

Which yeast strain did you use? It doesn't seem possible that it would be that slow!

 

[jsbiral]

initially, I used the one that came with the kit but threw that away after I pitched it. Attempts to figure out what strain came with it have been unsuccessful. I then pitched two packets of Saflager S-23. It's been about three weeks since then, Ill pull a sample tonight when I get home and post the readings.

 

[jsbiral]

So I went to take a sample and do a hydro reading yesterday after work and as I was heading down to the basement, the dogs came charging down the steps and I dropped the wine thief which subsequently shattered. Went to the LHBS today and they don't carry any so I'm stuck ordering one or, maybe running up to Wal-Mart and buying a turkey baster and hoping it's long enough to reach the wort from the top of the bucket. I'd rather not remove the lid to get the sample, if I can avoid it so I'm going to go ahead and place an order for a new wine thief tonight and tomorrow will stop at Wal-Mart to see what they have for basters. I'll keep you updated. Sorry this brew has been such a calamity and I really appreciate everyone's help.

 

[osagedr]

Dude, this batch is starting to look cursed...

 

[jsbiral]

Tell me about it! Plus, Wal-Mart only had short, 10" basters so I'll have to wait until next week when the wine thief gets here to pull the next sample unless I decide to take the lid off of the primary which I really prefer not to do. I guess if theres anything to take away from this it's that I always learn more when things go wrong than when everything falls into place and since t his has been one disaster after another, I feel like I have gotten better insight to lagering and next time, should be better prepared.

 

[jsbiral]

Perhaps things are starting to turn around. I had a buddy show up with a wine thief and after taking a hydrometer reading, the beer is at 1.018 which, as far as I'm concerned (especially with this particular beer), is close enough. Racked it to the secondary, took a sip of the sample, pretty good but the mouth feel is still a little slick. I'm gonna give it one more day in the secondary at about 60 degrees and then start the lagering. Thanks again everyone for all of the help with my first true lager. Definitely learned a lot!

 

[Yooper]

Perhaps things are starting to turn around. I had a buddy show up with a wine thief and after taking a hydrometer reading, the beer is at 1.018 which, as far as I'm concerned (especially with this particular beer), is close enough. Racked it to the secondary, took a sip of the sample, pretty good but the mouth feel is still a little slick. I'm gonna give it one more day in the secondary at about 60 degrees and then start the lagering. Thanks again everyone for all of the help with my first true lager. Definitely learned a lot!

IF the mouthfeel has ANY slickness to it at all, don't rack! You want to finish up the diacetyl rest without any hint of diacetyl or you'll end up with butterbeer when it's finished! It gets worse with time, not better!

 

[jsbiral]

DOH! Too late. Shoot. It wasn't much of a slick feeling and I probaly wouldn't have noticed it except the beer was pretty warm (it was sitting in a graduated cylinder, in the sun for about an hour and a half before I sampled it). Can you tell me how long it takes before I will know if it gets worse? Like I said before, hopefully things work out okay. I'll be disappointed if th ebeer turns out poor but at the same time, I've learned so much this round that I'll be more successful the next time.

 

[osagedr]

Not much you can do about it now except wait. If you have diacetyl in your beer after lagering it can be fixed with pretty satisfactory results (it's happened to me).