Feeling ready to give up on BIAB.

[vance]

While trying to dial this in if I were you I'd set your kettle losses in BS to zero and try to aim for a consistent mash efficiency, forgetting about brewhouse efficiency for now. That is a hard number to chase as losses can vary so much depending on hops, etc.

Targeting crush is not a bandaid, it is the first step in troubleshooting efficiency as almost everyone will tell you. If you eliminate that from the equation you're only going to get so far. You might pick up a bit with a better squeeze - right now looks like you're hitting about .1 gal per lb absoprtion so you could get that down to .07-.08.

So set kettle losses to zero and just dump my entire kettle into the fermenter? How does that eliminate brewhouse efficiency?

And no, I didn't mean targeting crush is a bandaid - I was referring to buying more grain to compensate for poor efficiency instead of fixing whatever is causing the poor efficiency in the first place.

 

[Redlantern]

just got my Monster Mill 3-roller. Efficiency went way up

 

[McKnuckle]

Brewhouse efficiency takes both failure to collect all potential sugars AND all volume losses into account. It's less useful because each brewer can save or discard volume at different points according to his/her whim, yet doing so (or not) has no effect on gravity or quality.

 

[jjw5015]

I think my grain absorption is off a bit - my strike water was 9.27 gallons, and my calculated pre-boil volume was a touch over 8 gallons. I hit that with only a very quick squeeze and letting my bag grain for a few minutes - if I had squeezed and drained more, I'm sure there was another half gallon of liquid in there.

Not sure if this has been addressed, but your volumes seem way off. I start with 7.5 gals, don't sparge at all, and end up with around 6 in my fermenter. Everything I brew is loaded with hops, so I end up with perfectly 5 gallons into keg. I'd look into that more

 

[vance]

Not sure what to change on my volumes. I'll throw up another post here next time I brew, but it looked like this:

Started with 9.27 gallons of strike water, per priceless' BIAB calc. After my mash, I had about 8-8.25 gallons. Boiled for an hour, down to 7 gallon, and put 6 gallons into my fermenter.

 

[jjw5015]

Not sure what to change on my volumes. I'll throw up another post here next time I brew, but it looked like this:

Started with 9.27 gallons of strike water, per priceless' BIAB calc. After my mash, I had about 8-8.25 gallons. Boiled for an hour, down to 7 gallon, and put 6 gallons into my fermenter.

If you're down to 7 after the boil why are you only putting 6 into the fermentor? Lots of sugar probably being left in the kettle. I'd start with a gallon less to offset that and dump everything into the fermentor.

 

[vance]

If you're down to 7 after the boil why are you only putting 6 into the fermentor? Lots of sugar probably being left in the kettle. I'd start with a gallon less to offset that and dump everything into the fermentor.

Isn't that what people normally do? I guess the idea was to let some of my hop and grain matter settle out, since it was heavy on the hops, but even after chilling and waiting a while I couldn't get much to settle. It shouldn't matter though, no? It's all the same gravity (or should be).

 

[chickypad]

So set kettle losses to zero and just dump my entire kettle into the fermenter? How does that eliminate brewhouse efficiency?

Yes. Or keep the trub back if you want, but for the purposes of BS calculations don't call it kettle losses (just consider it part of fermenter losses). In BS you can't set your mash efficiency, you can only set the brewhouse, which for many people changes batch to batch. If you set your batch size to the the post boil kettle volume you want, and your kettle losses to zero, then the "brewhouse efficiency" in BS will equal the mash efficiency, which is the number you should aim to hit consistently.

Looks like you have a lot more losses then most people. That's fine if you want to do it that way, but you need to account for it in your recipe - i.e. plan a batch size for 7 gals.

 

[chickypad]

Isn't that what people normally do? I guess the idea was to let some of my hop and grain matter settle out, since it was heavy on the hops, but even after chilling and waiting a while I couldn't get much to settle. It shouldn't matter though, no? It's all the same gravity (or should be).

It matters if you're not accounting for it in your batch size. All that volume you're losing isn't water, it's wort with sugars. If you plan your recipe for 6 gals but are actually making 7 gals your efficiency is going to look much lower than it really is.

 

[vance]

Yes. Or keep the trub back if you want, but for the purposes of BS calculations don't call it kettle losses (just consider it part of fermenter losses). In BS you can't set your mash efficiency, you can only set the brewhouse, which for many people changes batch to batch. If you set your batch size to the the post boil kettle volume you want, and your kettle losses to zero, then the "brewhouse efficiency" in BS will equal the mash efficiency, which is the number you should aim to hit consistently.

Looks like you have a lot more losses then most people. That's fine if you want to do it that way, but you need to account for it in your recipe - i.e. plan a batch size for 7 gals.

I probably won't do it like that in the future - I purposely overcompensated this batch. .5 kettle loss and .75 fermenter loss is probably good enough. I still don't entirely get what you mean though - doesn't brewhouse efficiency include other things, like boil off losses?

Actually, I think I'm seeing what you mean... mash efficiency is the part we really want to control, yeah? Brewhouse efficiency is more about volumes? I'll try that next time and see what I get. I'm really tempted to brew tomorrow, despite how miserable the weather was on Sunday, but I don't have anything to make a starter out of that fast and yeast health is something I need to get on top of fixing as well...

 

[jjw5015]

It matters if you're not accounting for it in your batch size. All that volume you're losing isn't water, it's wort with sugars. If you plan your recipe for 6 gals but are actually making 7 gals your efficiency is going to look much lower than it really is.

^this. You're losing roughly 15% by leaving it behind.

 

[vance]

It matters if you're not accounting for it in your batch size. All that volume you're losing isn't water, it's wort with sugars. If you plan your recipe for 6 gals but are actually making 7 gals your efficiency is going to look much lower than it really is.

It was accounted for in my batch size, although I screwed up translating between BS and priceless - BS I had listed 0.5 kettle losses and 5.75 batch size into the fermenter, so there was a .75 gallon difference between that and what I actually brewed. Damn, now this is making me want to brew again and see if I can fix it.

 

[RM-MN]

7 gallons was what I wanted post boil. I went for 1 gallon each of kettle and fermenter loss, partly because I was brewing a NE IPA with lots of hop matter and partly because I've only been getting about 4.5 gallons into my keg, lately. I know I can up the grain bill, but I'd rather figure out why I'm only getting 60% efficiency and not hitting a predictable OG. Only guess I have for my off flavors is fermentstion temp, which I'm hoping this Hothead yeast takes care of.

I wrap my kettle in an old comforter. I usually only drop about 2 degrees over a 60 minute mash, if that, but it was in the low 20s when I brewed on Sunday - I started brewing in July so all my precious batches it had been in the 60s or higher.

What you leave in the kettle is mostly wort with some hops and break material and it pure loss. Use less water, then dump everything into the fermenter. When the beer is done and everything has a chance to settle out, rack above it. You won't lose nearly as much as you think, certainly not the gallon you've been leaving in the kettle.

You mention not wanting to juggle heating more water to sparge with.....so don't. Cold water sparges work almost as well and gains you the sugars you otherwise leave behind.

When it comes to efficiency, crush is the top problem. Kettle loss is quite a bit below that unless you leave a lot.

 

[TheMadKing]

Guys, we need to specify which efficiency we are referring to. This thread is getting confusing.

Mash efficiency refers to the amount of suger extracted from the grain/ the amount of sugar that the grain contained. This is a pre-boil number and only accounts for the amount of sugar extracted.

Brewhouse efficiency accounts for volumes and is an overall efficiency measurement that is more affected by volumes than by the actual extraction efficiency. (Both do affect it though)

Beersmiths definitions are slightly different than conventional definitions.

The following is the Beersmith definition courtesy of Brukaiser

"brewhouse efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency
Conversion efficiency measures how well the mash extracted the grist (malt and mash tun adjuncts). The benchmark is the fine grind extract that was determined in the laboratory. If all of that is extracted, the mash efficiency is 100%. Conversion efficiency is affected my mash parameters like pH, crush, diastatic power, temperature profile, mash type and mash time and should be close to 100%.

Lauter efficiency measures how well the lautering process transferred the extract, made soluble by mashing, into the boil kettle. It is affected by the design of the lauter system, type of lautering (no sparge, batch sparge or fly sparge) and sparging practice. The parameters that affect lauter efficiency for batch sparging have been discussed in Batch Sparging Analysis."

-Brukaiser's website

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

We can't all keep saying "efficiency," when I've seen at least 2 people operating on different definitions.

@vance I think your brewhouse efficiency is the issue here. So you need to nail down whether your conversion efficiency or your lauter efficiency is the main culprit. Lauter efficiency is by far the most likely. AND reduce the amount of water used in order to boost your OG.

Kettle loss and trub loss will not affect your OG directly, just your final volume.

Overcompensating for them by adding water to the recipe without increasing the grain bill WILL affect your OG

 

[bucfan1234]

Try holding a gallon back and gently pour over the grain bag.

I fill my kettle with full volume and start heating the strike water. When my water is around 120 or so I drain a gallon into my pitcher and sit it aside for my "spare". I really don't give much thought to the temp of this gallon.

Ok, with the new info. Putting your grain bill into beersmith as a BIAB, it seems your volumes were approximately what beersmith recommends. Pre-boil 9.5, Post Boil 7.39 gallons, 6.08 to fermenter. Pre-boil 1.037, OG 1.050.

The other two likely suspects mentioned were crush and incomplete conversion. Did you check for conversion with iodine?

 

[vance]

Ok, with the new info. Putting your grain bill into beersmith as a BIAB, it seems your volumes were approximately what beersmith recommends. Pre-boil 9.5, Post Boil 7.39 gallons, 6.08 to fermenter. Pre-boil 1.037, OG 1.050.

The other two likely suspects mentioned were crush and incomplete conversion. Did you check for conversion with iodine?

No, never done any conversion tests.

 

[vance]

Guys, we need to specify which efficiency we are referring to. This thread is getting confusing.

Mash efficiency refers to the amount of suger extracted from the grain/ the amount of sugar that the grain contained. This is a pre-boil number and only accounts for the amount of sugar extracted.

Brewhouse efficiency accounts for volumes and is an overall efficiency measurement that is more affected by volumes than by the actual extraction efficiency. (Both do affect it though)

Beersmiths definitions are slightly different than conventional definitions.

The following is the Beersmith definition courtesy of Brukaiser

"brewhouse efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency
Conversion efficiency measures how well the mash extracted the grist (malt and mash tun adjuncts). The benchmark is the fine grind extract that was determined in the laboratory. If all of that is extracted, the mash efficiency is 100%. Conversion efficiency is affected my mash parameters like pH, crush, diastatic power, temperature profile, mash type and mash time and should be close to 100%.

Lauter efficiency measures how well the lautering process transferred the extract, made soluble by mashing, into the boil kettle. It is affected by the design of the lauter system, type of lautering (no sparge, batch sparge or fly sparge) and sparging practice. The parameters that affect lauter efficiency for batch sparging have been discussed in Batch Sparging Analysis."

-Brukaiser's website

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

We can't all keep saying "efficiency," when I've seen at least 2 people operating on different definitions.

@vance I think your brewhouse efficiency is the issue here. So you need to nail down whether your conversion efficiency or your lauter efficiency is the main culprit. Lauter efficiency is by far the most likely. AND reduce the amount of water used in order to boost your OG.

Kettle loss and trub loss will not affect your OG directly, just your final volume.

Overcompensating for them by adding water to the recipe without increasing the grain bill WILL affect your OG

So how do I improve lauter efficiency in a full-volume BIAB system, where I don't really... do any lautering, if I'm understanding it correctly?

 

[bucfan1234]

No, never done any conversion tests.

I never did either, until I had a batch like yours with really low efficiency. Now I check every time, and I seem to be hitting my numbers on a regular basis.

 

[doug293cz]

I thought so too when it was suggested to me, but I tried it on my last batch and saw a jump from 1.035 to 1.040. I figured it was worth a shot to a desperate man.

I drained and squeezed my bag as normal. I took 4 refractomter readings before dunking my bag and averaged them, and 4 after and after averaged them. I double checked the calibration of my refractometer, and the waited for the temperature to equalize with the air with each sample. I stirred my wort vigorously between samples to ensure no stratification.

Maybe it was just coincidence, but I'm fairly certain that it was a real effect, though I agree that I don't understand the precise mechanism of what happened.

There are two possibilities for what you observed:

1. Your conversion was not complete, so the extra time involved allowed more conversion, thus increasing SG.
2. Your wort was not uniform concentration prior to taking the original readings. The dunking provided better mixing, giving you a better measurement of the actual SG.

I got a lesson in just how hard it is to actually get good mixing of wort yesterday. I did a double sized batch in my BIAB, so had to do a pour over sparge. I whirlpooled the sparge and first runnings with my whisk pretty aggressively prior to taking my pre-boil SG. The SG measurement was way low (determined by checking post-boil volume and SG) because the sample was more sparged wort than first runnings. Inadequate mixing, and I thought I knew better.

Another thing to consider is taking hot wort measurements with a refractometer. Waiting for a small sample to cool can result in significant water evaporation from the sample, which will give an anomalously high SG reading. A two drop sample on a refract will reach instrument temp almost instantly. Make the measurement as fast as you can to avoid high readings.

I suppose my method is called dunk sparging? I have an Arbor Fab BIAB basket. I lift the basket out of the wort with a pulley until the basket clears the wort. I use my spoon to disturb the grain bed, then dunk and lift several times while working the grains with my spoon. I figured I may be simply wasting my time but I never have done a sparge with heated water as I full volume mash.

Sparging is rinsing. Putting the grain back in the original wort, or running the wort back thru the grain, is not rinsing (sparging), although it might give you better homogenization. Rinsing works to extract more sugar because of dilution, so that the wort retained by the grain contains less sugar than it did before rinsing.

A dunk sparge involves placing the bag/basket in a vessel of water, mixing well, and then draining. It is functionally equivalent to a batch sparge in a traditional MLT.

What mash thickness are you using? I've found that if I do a full volume mash, especially with a low gravity beer, I get horrible efficiency. If you keep your mash thickness within 1.25 - 1.5 qt/lb then you should be able to get at least 60% efficiency even with a single crush.

After the mash measure your volume and gravity and make a plan from there. If your pre-boil gravity is too low you could add/sparge with less water if you didn't do full volume mash, you could boil longer and harder, or you could add some malt extract.

I've found a full volume mash gets worse efficiency and leaves me with less options for correction after the mash.

This conflicts with experiments published by Kai Troester (Braukaiser), ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Mash_thickness. Thinner mashes (at least up to about 2.4 qt/lb) actually convert at a faster rate than thicker mashes. Theory and experiment agree here. Recommending thicker mashes to improve conversion efficiency is bad advice.

Brew on

 

[Soyben]

I recently converted over to full volume AG and my first few batches I had disapointing efficiency as well. I began holding back about 2 gallons for a dunk sparge and my efficiency increased considerably. My guess you are having latuer efficiency issues as well. As mentioned above a cold water sparge will work very well if you don't want to heat more water and you can do the pour over method if you don't want to add another pot to you set up.

 

[vance]

I recently converted over to full volume AG and my first few batches I had disapointing efficiency as well. I began holding back about 2 gallons for a dunk sparge and my efficiency increased considerably. My guess you are having latuer efficiency issues as well. As mentioned above a cold water sparge will work very well if you don't want to heat more water and you can do the pour over method if you don't want to add another pot to you set up.

What do you do for your dunk sparge? I have a smaller, 6 gallon (I think) kettle sitting around from when I first started brewing. The one time I've tried a sparge, I heated up about 2 gallons I think and set my grain bag in my old bottling bucket. Then I poured the water through the spigot into my extra kettle. I still missed my gravity by 10 points though, so it kind of turned me off sparging.

I also don't have any extra help while I'm brewing to hold grain bags open for a pour sparge or anything, so I'm a little reluctant to move away from full volume mashes.

 

[Morrey]

What do you do for your dunk sparge? I have a smaller, 6 gallon (I think) kettle sitting around from when I first started brewing. The one time I've tried a sparge, I heated up about 2 gallons I think and set my grain bag in my old bottling bucket. Then I poured the water through the spigot into my extra kettle. I still missed my gravity by 10 points though, so it kind of turned me off sparging.

I also don't have any extra help while I'm brewing to hold grain bags open for a pour sparge or anything, so I'm a little reluctant to move away from full volume mashes.

Vance, if you are like me, if it works don't fix it. I raise my grain basket with a pulley and dunk up and down a few times while stirring the grain. As was pointed out to me, this is not a dunk sparge I am doing.

However, tracking my last seven BIAB brews with full volume mashes, I am averaging 81.06% BH efficiency. While I may try something different for experimentation, I may go backwards with my numbers. For this reason alone, I am like you being hesitant to go with an unfamiliar process.

 

[vance]

Vance, if you are like me, if it works don't fix it. I raise my grain basket with a pulley and dunk up and down a few times while stirring the grain. As was pointed out to me, this is not a dunk sparge I am doing.

However, tracking my last seven BIAB brews with full volume mashes, I am averaging 81.06% BH efficiency. While I may try something different for experimentation, I may go backwards with my numbers. For this reason alone, I am like you being hesitant to go with an unfamiliar process.

I'd be thrilled to be averaging 80%... asides from your crush, is there anything you can pinpoint that you do differently in your process from what I've described?

 

[doug293cz]

What do you do for your dunk sparge? I have a smaller, 6 gallon (I think) kettle sitting around from when I first started brewing. The one time I've tried a sparge, I heated up about 2 gallons I think and set my grain bag in my old bottling bucket. Then I poured the water through the spigot into my extra kettle. I still missed my gravity by 10 points though, so it kind of turned me off sparging.

I also don't have any extra help while I'm brewing to hold grain bags open for a pour sparge or anything, so I'm a little reluctant to move away from full volume mashes.

Did you stir the grain plus sparge water well before draining into your kettle? Thorough mixing of the water plus grain is essential for getting the results expected from dunk or batch sparging.

You don't have to give up full volume (no-sparge) mashing to get "good" efficiency. The keys are getting close to 100% conversion efficiency (crush, crush, crush ...), and then minimizing grain absorption by long draining of the bag and/or squeezing. Check out the chart below: Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, so if conversion efficiency ~= 100%, then mash efficiency equals lauter efficiency. A good drain should give you 0.09 to 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption, and squeezing can get you 0.06 to 0.08 gal/lb. Get a colander that is slightly larger in diameter than your kettle, and push the bag in that to squeeze (silicone gloves are helpful to deal with the heat and sticky.) This is easily a one person operation.

A typical 1.050 - 1.055 OG beer (starting with 10 lb of grain and 6.75 gal pre-boil [1.48 lb/gal grain to pre-boil volume ratio]) can get you 5.5 gal to the fermenter at about 80% - 85% efficiency (@ 100% conversion efficiency) using no-sparge.



Brew on

 

[vance]

Did you stir the grain plus sparge water well before draining into your kettle? Thorough mixing of the water plus grain is essential for getting the results expected from dunk or batch sparging.

You don't have to give up full volume (no-sparge) mashing to get "good" efficiency. The keys are getting close to 100% conversion efficiency (crush, crush, crush ...), and then minimizing grain absorption by long draining of the bag and/or squeezing. Check out the chart below: Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, so if conversion efficiency ~= 100%, then mash efficiency equals lauter efficiency. A good drain should give you 0.09 to 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption, and squeezing can get you 0.06 to 0.08 gal/lb. Get a colander that is slightly larger in diameter than your kettle, and push the bag in that to squeeze (silicone gloves are helpful to deal with the heat and sticky.) This is easily a one person operation.

A typical 1.050 - 1.055 OG beer (starting with 10 lb of grain and 6.75 gal pre-boil [1.48 lb/gal grain to pre-boil volume ratio]) can get you 5.5 gal to the fermenter at about 80% - 85% efficiency (@ 100% conversion efficiency) using no-sparge.

View attachment 381267

Brew on

Question on grain absorption: If I hit my pre-boil volume without having to squeeze or drain much, does this mean I'm losing gravity points in the bag? That's what happened on Sunday - I gave the bag a quick squeeze as I pulled it out and drained maybe another quarter of a gallon, and I was at my pre-boil mark.

 

[Morrey]

Question on grain absorption: If I hit my pre-boil volume without having to squeeze or drain much, does this mean I'm losing gravity points in the bag? That's what happened on Sunday - I gave the bag a quick squeeze as I pulled it out and drained maybe another quarter of a gallon, and I was at my pre-boil mark.

Vance...a quick rundown on my last brew: Good, fine grind for BIAB. Full volume mash and pay good attention to your water chemistry especially ph.

Used 10# grains filled kettle with 7.25G adjusted water. Mashed 60 min at 148F. I have an Arbor Fab basket with a press plate and I press firmly several times. My preboil vol was 6.75G so I lost only .5G grain absorb. 60 min boil and my post boil vol into fermenter was 5.5G after straining break materials out. I strained trub out with a paint strainer mesh bag. 81.07% BH. In fact...my last 7 have been all within a tiny range of each other.

Don't worry as much about being over your vol. The more you get the better since this contains your sugars. Simply boil a bit longer to get the vol you need to go into fermenter. You probably lost a good bit of efficiency by tossing out the "wet" grain bag. You tossed your goodies my friend!!

 

[Morrey]

Did you stir the grain plus sparge water well before draining into your kettle? Thorough mixing of the water plus grain is essential for getting the results expected from dunk or batch sparging.

You don't have to give up full volume (no-sparge) mashing to get "good" efficiency. The keys are getting close to 100% conversion efficiency (crush, crush, crush ...), and then minimizing grain absorption by long draining of the bag and/or squeezing. Check out the chart below: Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, so if conversion efficiency ~= 100%, then mash efficiency equals lauter efficiency. A good drain should give you 0.09 to 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption, and squeezing can get you 0.06 to 0.08 gal/lb. Get a colander that is slightly larger in diameter than your kettle, and push the bag in that to squeeze (silicone gloves are helpful to deal with the heat and sticky.) This is easily a one person operation.

A typical 1.050 - 1.055 OG beer (starting with 10 lb of grain and 6.75 gal pre-boil [1.48 lb/gal grain to pre-boil volume ratio]) can get you 5.5 gal to the fermenter at about 80% - 85% efficiency (@ 100% conversion efficiency) using no-sparge.

View attachment 381267

Brew on

Doug, your numbers and chart are lining up "textbook" with the numbers I am seeing and reported above.

 

[vance]

Vance...a quick rundown on my last brew: Good, fine grind for BIAB. Full volume mash and pay good attention to your water chemistry especially ph.

Used 10# grains filled kettle with 7.25G adjusted water. Mashed 60 min at 148F. I have an Arbor Fab basket with a press plate and I press firmly several times. My preboil vol was 6.75G so I lost only .5G grain absorb. 60 min boil and my post boil vol into fermenter was 5.5G after straining break materials out. I strained trub out with a paint strainer mesh bag. 81.07% BH. In fact...my last 7 have been all within a tiny range of each other.

Don't worry as much about being over your vol. The more you get the better since this contains your sugars. Simply boil a bit longer to get the vol you need to go into fermenter. You probably lost a good bit of efficiency by tossing out the "wet" grain bag. You tossed your goodies my friend!!

Wouldn't squeezing out the grain bag just have diluted my wort even further?

Also, where do you decide your strike volumes from?

 

[Soyben]

What do you do for your dunk sparge? I have a smaller, 6 gallon (I think) kettle sitting around from when I first started brewing. The one time I've tried a sparge, I heated up about 2 gallons I think and set my grain bag in my old bottling bucket. Then I poured the water through the spigot into my extra kettle. I still missed my gravity by 10 points though, so it kind of turned me off sparging.

I also don't have any extra help while I'm brewing to hold grain bags open for a pour sparge or anything, so I'm a little reluctant to move away from full volume mashes.

I set a 20 qt pot on the stove with 2 gallons of water on medium heat and leave it while I tend to other things. I check the temperature occasionally during the mash to make sure it doesn't get that hot, usually it gets into the mash temperature range but not really that important. At the end of my mash I lift the grains with a pulley and let drain to kettle, when it has almost stopped draining I place a larger colander with adjustable arms across my kettle. I slide a baking pan under the colander and transfer it to the a 32 qt pot I have and then pour the 2 gallons of water on the grain. I start bringing the kettle to boil, after 10 to 15 minutes I lift my grain and place the colander back under the bag. I usually add the sparge after the hot break.

Using around 12-13 lbs of grain my 2 gallon sparge comes in usually at 1.022 which if I remember correctly is just shy of a 10% bump (I forget which efficiency however). I originally went straight to the 20 qt pot but I started doing some larger batches so I needed a bigger pot and found one cheap.

I brew solo myself, not that much of an effort. The colander is a big help found it at Walmart about $15, I think they call it a sink colander.

 

[Morrey]

Wouldn't squeezing out the grain bag just have diluted my wort even further?

Also, where do you decide your strike volumes from?

Squeezing your grain bag will give you more volume, but this volume contains lots of sugars which IS your effeciency. By adjusting your boil time a bit longer, aim for the post-boil volume you want by boiling longer and squeeze the bag dry as you can. Leaving the bag dripping is throwing the baby out with the wash.

In my case I want 5.5 gallon into fermenter since I know I'll lose .5 G to the yeast cake when I fill my 5 gallon keg for a 5 gallon batch.

My kettle has a sight glass gauge which I couldn't live without.

Programs like BeerSmith can be very helpful in establishing volumes among other things such as recipe development. Experience with your particular equipment is helpful to learn how much evaporation (boil off) you'll have in say 60 minutes. Measure how much water you'll lose in your grain bag with absorption. Think about it backwards...the add up your losses. You want 5.5G into fermenter....you'll likely lose 1.75 to 2 gallons in the loss column. I start with 7.25G for a 10# grain bill and my losses pretty well get 5.5G into fermenter for a 5 gallon batch. YMMV for sure, so play with volumes until you nail this down.

 

[doug293cz]

Question on grain absorption: If I hit my pre-boil volume without having to squeeze or drain much, does this mean I'm losing gravity points in the bag? That's what happened on Sunday - I gave the bag a quick squeeze as I pulled it out and drained maybe another quarter of a gallon, and I was at my pre-boil mark.

Yes. For no-sparge, all the wort retained in the grain contains the same concentration of sugar as the wort in the kettle.

Edit: So, squeezing gets you more wort volume and more sugar, but at the same SG as the initial runnings (unless you have incomplete conversion which continues during squeezing, and then you actually concentrate the wort a little by squeezing.)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Doug, your numbers and chart are lining up "textbook" with the numbers I am seeing and reported above.

Thanks. Always good to get additional validation for the simulation models.

Brew on

 

[Morrey]

Thanks. Always good to get additional validation for the simulation models.

Brew on

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

 

[vance]

Yes. For no-sparge, all the wort retained in the grain contains the same concentration of sugar as the wort in the kettle.

Edit: So, squeezing gets you more wort volume and more sugar, but at the same SG as the initial runnings (unless you have incomplete conversion which continues during squeezing, and then you actually concentrate the wort a little by squeezing.)

Brew on

Oh, I see how it increases efficiency. If I had 7 gallons of 1.045 wort pre-boil, which was my intended volume, and then squeezed out another half gallon, it'd still all be 1.045, it wouldn't be diluted, but I'd then have 7.5 gallons of still the same OG meaning I'd actually have greater than expected efficiency.

 

[doug293cz]

Oh, I see how it increases efficiency. If I had 7 gallons of 1.045 wort pre-boil, which was my intended volume, and then squeezed out another half gallon, it'd still all be 1.045, it wouldn't be diluted, but I'd then have 7.5 gallons of still the same OG meaning I'd actually have greater than expected efficiency.

You got it!

Brew on

 

[thebrewquest]

My $0.02. I BIAB most of the time and use Beersmith exclusively to build my recipes and set up brew day. Using BS then BIAB spreadsheet seems like double the work...

I use the BIAB mash profile and equipment profiles that are built into BS, and plan for 68% efficiency. Full volume, no sparge, BIAB. Never used more than 8 gallons of water - even for super hoppy beers. Like clockwork, if I follow BS, I get the beer I want at the volumes I want. Setting up your equipment profile in BS is key, then let the software do the rest. The difference in cost for grain bills brewed BIAB or in a conventional mash tun is ~$2. Buying more grain for BIAB to compensate isn't really a band-aid. I call it a convenience cost for brewing in one vessel with no dunks, sparges, special milling, etc...

Everybody's advice has been solid so far - but at the end of the day it comes down to 2 things:
1. What do you want to brew?
2. How do you want to brew it?

BIAB can be just as complicated as standard 3 vessel brewing with extra fine crushes, sparges, step mashes etc... You can also full volume mash in a cooler mash tun. Beersmith's blog actually has an article on how to do it.

Most people do BIAB for the simplicity of the process vs 3-vessel brewing. If that is your goal, plan on a slightly lower efficiency and follow BS steps.

Just my opinion.

Keep on keepin on!

 

[vance]

Alright: I decided to brew again today. It's only 40*, I have a free evening, so here we are. I'm gonna run through basically everything I'm going to do and see if the friendly residents of HBT (thanks for all your help already!) have any recommendations.

Recipe: (mostly) SMaSH

12.5# Vienna

Hops:

1 oz Columbus @ 60

.5 oz Mosaic @ 30

.5 oz Mosaic @ 10

1 oz Mosaic @ 5

No whirlpool or dry hops - don't feel like dealing with it.

I'm going to use White Labs SF Lager Yeast and ferment it slightly warmer, at ale temps. I'm going out of town on Friday for 4-5 days, so my plan is to use my keezer as a ferm chamber - once I brew it tonight and pitch the yeast, I'm going to set the temp to 53 and let it ferment there until I come home, where I'll probably keep it cool as I can in a swamp cooler for a few days before letting it warm up.

One of my favorite beers was made with fermenting SF lager yeast warm, so I'm hoping this comes out well. I don't have time to make a starter, unfortunately. I changed my efficiency to 65% in BS, and I'm hitting 1.055 OG iirc (not home to check).

I set my kettle losses for 0, to just test my mash efficiency, and fermenter losses for 0.75 gallons. Priceless and BS both have my mash volume at 8 gallons of water.

Bru'n water, done for my grain bill with a Lovibond of 3.5, has my initial pH at 5.72. Here's a picture of the sheet with the adjustments I've decided on so far: http://imgur.com/a/b6DbP

I set my Beersmith efficiency to 65% - a little lower than I'd like, but I seem to be 60 or under consistently, so we'll start there. I'm going to ask the LHBS to set the gap as tight as they can, and double mill if possible.

I don't want a ton of sweetness, so I'm going to try and mash a bit lower - 150 probably. On the other hand it's still cold and I still lose heat, so I'm probably going to aim to mash in to around 152 so that I stay within conversion range. I might try wrapping an extra comforter around my kettle during the mash. My plan is a 75 minute mash this time - 60 minutes of mashing, then turning my burner on very low to give a small mashout step.

Anything I'm missing? Any other simple improvements I can make?

 

[Morrey]

All looks great, Vance. Keeping in mind your volumes are an important part of efficiency, you say you'll start with 8G of full vol strike water. Pull your bag after mash and you'll squeeze it well.....then squeeze it again to get as dry as possible. Check your volume now as this is your pre-boil volume and record the specific gravity. Assuming you want 5.5G into fermenter, boil as long as it takes you get your wort reduced to that volume. If you have gone under 5.5G with a 60 min boil, add a small amount of top off water to make the vol 5.5G. Take a gravity reading now and this is your OG. Plug these values into a calc program to determine your efficiencies. Record things like grain absorption and boil off so you can get some solid readings for your process. These can be put into BS later as you hone in your process.

Your temps look good. If you have any issues along the way hit me up with an email and we can walk you through the snag. [email protected]. If you email me I'll send my cell number so you won't go thru this alone.

 

[TheMadKing]

Alright: I decided to brew again today. It's only 40*, I have a free evening, so here we are. I'm gonna run through basically everything I'm going to do and see if the friendly residents of HBT (thanks for all your help already!) have any recommendations.

Recipe: (mostly) SMaSH

12.5# Vienna

Hops:

1 oz Columbus @ 60

.5 oz Mosaic @ 30

.5 oz Mosaic @ 10

1 oz Mosaic @ 5

No whirlpool or dry hops - don't feel like dealing with it.

I'm going to use White Labs SF Lager Yeast and ferment it slightly warmer, at ale temps. I'm going out of town on Friday for 4-5 days, so my plan is to use my keezer as a ferm chamber - once I brew it tonight and pitch the yeast, I'm going to set the temp to 53 and let it ferment there until I come home, where I'll probably keep it cool as I can in a swamp cooler for a few days before letting it warm up.

One of my favorite beers was made with fermenting SF lager yeast warm, so I'm hoping this comes out well. I don't have time to make a starter, unfortunately. I changed my efficiency to 65% in BS, and I'm hitting 1.055 OG iirc (not home to check).

I set my kettle losses for 0, to just test my mash efficiency, and fermenter losses for 0.75 gallons. Priceless and BS both have my mash volume at 8 gallons of water.

Bru'n water, done for my grain bill with a Lovibond of 3.5, has my initial pH at 5.72. Here's a picture of the sheet with the adjustments I've decided on so far: http://imgur.com/a/b6DbP

I set my Beersmith efficiency to 65% - a little lower than I'd like, but I seem to be 60 or under consistently, so we'll start there. I'm going to ask the LHBS to set the gap as tight as they can, and double mill if possible.

I don't want a ton of sweetness, so I'm going to try and mash a bit lower - 150 probably. On the other hand it's still cold and I still lose heat, so I'm probably going to aim to mash in to around 152 so that I stay within conversion range. I might try wrapping an extra comforter around my kettle during the mash. My plan is a 75 minute mash this time - 60 minutes of mashing, then turning my burner on very low to give a small mashout step.

Anything I'm missing? Any other simple improvements I can make?

I ran your recipe through beersmith and Brunwater and all your numbers check out. I'm getting a 1.053 OG though, but that's reasonably close that it's likely a system difference. (8 gallons of total water puts 5.5 gallons into my keg)

I recommend stirring every 15-20 minutes during the mash too.

Maybe consider using a dry ale yeast for simplicity, but your plan should work fine.

 

[vance]

I ran your recipe through beersmith and Brunwater and all your numbers check out. I'm getting a 1.053 OG though, but that's reasonably close that it's likely a system difference. (8 gallons of total water puts 5.5 gallons into my keg)

I recommend stirring every 15-20 minutes during the mash too.

Maybe consider using a dry ale yeast for simplicity, but your plan should work fine.

I'll probably use US-05 if they don't have the lager yeast I want, but I want to take the opportunity while I'm gone to test controlling temperatures. I really liked the warm fermented lager I made a few months ago - it took a while for bitterness to settle out, but it was delicious.