FastFerment conical fermenter??????

[adamranders]

What irks me, is when folks come on and defend a flaw in the product. Myself along with many others on here push FF to make changes and improvements in the product. Then others come on and make light of it. If you don't think FF folks pay any attention to these posts, just scan throw the pages of this thread.

A product flaw is a product flaw. If it doesn't bother you, great! Go make some "grape bottle wine" or something and let those who want and expect a product to perform as it should push for the needed improvements.

Agreed, no one here is sh1ting on FF, we're giving feedback that will allow them to improve the product. If you don't have any problems with your FF, good congrats, but don't attack those that do or see areas that can be improved upon.

 

[ku5e]

I am not shilling for FF at all. I am just posting my opinion. What irks me is people relying on bubbles instead of science. And this issue would not exist if they relied on the tools of our trade.

 

[Wawster]

Agreed...the science is the ultimate scale......but having a system that works as expected is not out of line. I received the new gasket, and it works great for me. I did have to put sandpaper on a block and plane the top... I also had to clean all the flashing off of the threads...what is considered "normal stuff" for a $99 conical(for the DIY crowd)....but as FF has received feedback, they are making improvements. They are listening, from what I have seen. That being said, this feedback is valuable to them. We're the guys who are using and promoting their product and the word of mouth advertising can make or kill a product. So by putting our experiences here....good and bad...it helps them be successful.
So don't stop fellas.... the science/hydrometer readings are the ultimate measure, but the FF should seal and bubble (and lord knows we like the bubbling....).

I just bottled my last batch of wheat ale from the FF. I bottled it this time from a bottling bucket. Even though I emptied the ball a couple of times, the last bit of liquid into the bottling bucket was full of sediment. Instead of siphoning, I drew the beer through the valve into the bucket. A certain amount of sediment seems to cling to the walls of the conical even after sittting for quite a while, and gets released into the beer when you drain the conical. Didn't hurt anything...it was minor, but bugged me a little that I seemed to have more haziness in the drawn beer from the conical than I usually had when I siphoned from a carboy. I drained fairly slowly into the bucket also. The last quart or so was creamy tan-white with yeast/sediment I ended up stopping and dumping the last bit of beer. About a quart, maybe.
Last time I had bottled directly from the FF using fizz drops in the bottles (cream ale)...that seemed to work very well, but also had more sediment than usual in the bottles. The beer draining from the FF just seemed to have more in it to settle than when I secondary from a carboy and use a bottling bucket.

Any ideas? am I missing something fundamental here or is this just something that is expected and something to live with? The conditioned beer is fine...clear and good...once it sits in the bottles for a few weeks...but in both batches now there is more sediment than I have had in the past from alternative methods. I have emptied the ball both after primary and after "secondary". Both times, the ball only had a white layer of yeast in it about a 1/2 inch thick the second time I emptied.

Ideas?

 

[jbb3]

...
Any ideas? am I missing something fundamental here or is this just something that is expected and something to live with? The conditioned beer is fine...clear and good...once it sits in the bottles for a few weeks...but in both batches now there is more sediment than I have had in the past from alternative methods. I have emptied the ball both after primary and after "secondary". Both times, the ball only had a white layer of yeast in it about a 1/2 inch thick the second time I emptied.
Ideas?

Your experience was/is similar to mine. I didn't bottle directly from the FF for some of the very reasons you describe. Plus I used a priming solution and didn't want to attempt to mix it in the FF and stir up even more of the sediment. Are you are adding a transfer of beer and risking some O2 exposure by using a bottling bucket? Yes, but in my opinion it is a fairly minor exposure and still better than racking with an auto-siphon if you take it slow.

But it really boils down to personal preference. If you don't mind a little extra sediment, bottling direct from the FF is the way to go. It may take a little longer, but it will drop clear.

Now that I'm kegging, I start off by doing a quick opening and closing of the valve to dump the first 1/2 to 1 quart of beer off the bottom of the conical. Then I place the tubing in the keg and drain until it's full.

I'm thinking of trying an experiment on the next batch: The day before I plan to drain the FF into a keg, I may try moving/jostling the FF around a bit to see if it will knock loose some additional sediment off the sides and give it a day to settle out before draining into the keg. We'll see??

Cheers!

 

[msbrewblog]

I am not shilling for FF at all. I am just posting my opinion. What irks me is people relying on bubbles instead of science. And this issue would not exist if they relied on the tools of our trade.

Bubbles are the first indicator I like to use...then the hydrometer towards the end. I like that visual of what's going on in there, especially since I cannot see what's going on through the sides of the FF.

I proceeded with my first FF fermenting session knowing the top leaked but I'm not comfortable with it. Then having the gasket fall into the wort as I went to screw on the lid, that's another thing.

 

[msbrewblog]

I think the top of the fermentor needs to be lapped on a flat surface with some sandpaper. Sanding it with your hands can leave it much more uneven.

I'm planning to go a step further and grind away about an 1/8+" of the bottom lip of the lid. So the top of the lid will seat better on the gasket that I'll figure out how to keep from falling in the wort {Put gasket on FF first...then screw lid...maybe}

 

[Fast_Rack]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for the feedback! Just for the record.. We do 100% pay attention to this thread any many other ones. I know I have replied to this thread in the past. Really appreciated the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement from everyone. It is the only way we can make improvements and make better products.

We appreciate everyones efforts on getting their lids to seal properly. I know some of the units required a bit of standing on the top to ensure a good seal. Thank you for taking it upon yourself do make that adjustment. Going forward we have made two huge improvements that are already implemented.

1. The new 3mm thick rubber gasket that many of you know about.
2. The tops of all the units are ran through a plaining fixture in manufacturing. Basically a big automatic stander. This flattens all the tops properly now so all units being made now and in the future will seal really well.

If you are having issues please contact us directly at: [email protected]

We have a good track record for getting everyones issues fixed but we can only do that if you contact us directly. Threads, Forums, Social Media, are all great places we keep an eye on but can only response occasionally on them. If you not happy with something please tell us directly and not the forums that we only reply to sometimes.

We have other cool tips here that might be helpful.

https://fastferment.myshopify.com/pages/fastferment-faqs

Let us know if we can do anything and happy brewing!

Please keep the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement coming.

Best Regards - Cheers,

Casey
Red Dragon
FastFerment
[email protected]

 

[Homercidal]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for the feedback! Just for the record.. We do 100% pay attention to this thread any many other ones. I know I have replied to this thread in the past. Really appreciated the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement from everyone. It is the only way we can make improvements and make better products.

We appreciate everyones efforts on getting their lids to seal properly. I know some of the units required a bit of standing on the top to ensure a good seal. Thank you for taking it upon yourself do make that adjustment. Going forward we have made two huge improvements that are already implemented.

1. The new 3mm thick rubber gasket that many of you know about.
2. The tops of all the units are ran through a plaining fixture in manufacturing. Basically a big automatic stander. This flattens all the tops properly now so all units being made now and in the future will seal really well.

If you are having issues please contact us directly at: [email protected]

We have a good track record for getting everyones issues fixed but we can only do that if you contact us directly. Threads, Forums, Social Media, are all great places we keep an eye on but can only response occasionally on them. If you not happy with something please tell us directly and not the forums that we only reply to sometimes.

We have other cool tips here that might be helpful.

https://fastferment.myshopify.com/pages/fastferment-faqs

Let us know if we can do anything and happy brewing!

Please keep the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement coming.

Best Regards - Cheers,

Casey
Red Dragon
FastFerment
[email protected]

Thanks for the post updating the progress.

After working for 20 some years in plastics molding in various departments I would like to point out (although you are likely already aware) that a flat top on the conical is only half the battle. The lid must be molded so that it cannot warp. This is usually not a big deal unless they forget to turn the cooling water on or the process is tweaked to run really fast.

Also, in machining the top it's important to make sure the top is cut so that it's perpendicular to the threads so the lid can mate perfectly. A FLAT top may not be true to the lid otherwise.

Keep up the good work! Nice to see a vendor who stays in touch with the community and responds to comments and concerns.

 

[jbb3]

Hi Everyone!

Thanks for the feedback! Just for the record.. We do 100% pay attention to this thread any many other ones. I know I have replied to this thread in the past. Really appreciated the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement from everyone. It is the only way we can make improvements and make better products.

1. The new 3mm thick rubber gasket that many of you know about.
2. The tops of all the units are ran through a plaining fixture in manufacturing. Basically a big automatic stander. This flattens all the tops properly now so all units being made now and in the future will seal really well.

If you are having issues please contact us directly at: [email protected]

We have a good track record for getting everyones issues fixed but we can only do that if you contact us directly. Threads, Forums, Social Media, are all great places we keep an eye on but can only response occasionally on them. If you not happy with something please tell us directly and not the forums that we only reply to sometimes.

We have other cool tips here that might be helpful.

https://fastferment.myshopify.com/pages/fastferment-faqs

Let us know if we can do anything and happy brewing!

Please keep the feedback, criticism, suggestions, and encouragement coming.

Best Regards - Cheers,

Casey
Red Dragon
FastFerment
[email protected]

Casey,
Thanks for the update!

I've seen a few posts lately from folks reporting their tops are bottoming out on the fermenter body before it's sealed. It didn't make sense to me until seeing your post about the planing fixture. Now I see why. Problem solving has a ripple effect doesn't it...

You guys have made good strides with improvements. Good to see you are continuing those efforts!

Cheers!

 

[Wawster]

I'm thinking of trying an experiment on the next batch: The day before I plan to drain the FF into a keg, I may try moving/jostling the FF around a bit to see if it will knock loose some additional sediment off the sides and give it a day to settle out before draining into the keg. We'll see??

Cheers!

jbb3 - Great idea! Let me know how it goes! It sounds like it oughta reduce the amount of sediment in the beer when bottled. I'm on a trip out of country for the next 2 weeks, so I have some red Irish in secondary in my carboy, but the FF is empty until I get back...so I'll be looking to see how your experiment went...you're gonna get that that point in the process before I will with my next batch, I am sure!



And Casey...thanks for the feedback! I'll make sure to pass on ideas/suggestions directly to Fast_Rack!

 

[Newsman]

jbb3: You could try getting a sander and holding it up against the FF without sandpaper to try and jostle the trub loose.

 

[NateBrew]

So I have used my FF for a few batches now. One thing that I am a bit concerned with is the cleanup of diacetyl and acedaldehyde by the yeast after the ferment is done. In a carboy, there is a large surface area for the yeast to contact the beer even after they have mostly settled to the bottom. In the FF, it falls down into the ball and has essentially no contact with the beer anymore.

I have gotten feedback that all the beers I have made in the FF are buttery, brews that I have made several times in carboys before without this feedback.

My latest one is a 4% german pilsner that clearly didn't clean up (wyeast 2308 munich lager, 2 step starter 2L each; pitched at 50, fermented there for 4 days then up to 58 until things were almost done, then finished at 64 for 4 days as a diacetyl rest; OG: 1.040 FG:1.011). I did get a really nice collection of clean yeast in the ball at the bottom which I have been able to repitch, some of which I krausened and repitch into the keg to clean things up. I'm still waiting on the results of that, but if it does clean it up then it seems like it might point to an aspect of the FF that needs particular attention.

Has anyone else had such experiences with it? I really like the conical, but if I get cleanup issues then it makes using it a bit more of a hassel (krausen up some collected yeast for ever batch and dump it on top maybe?).

 

[cantrell00]

So I have used my FF for a few batches now. One thing that I am a bit concerned with is the cleanup of diacetyl and acedaldehyde by the yeast after the ferment is done. In a carboy, there is a large surface area for the yeast to contact the beer even after they have mostly settled to the bottom. In the FF, it falls down into the ball and has essentially no contact with the beer anymore.

I have gotten feedback that all the beers I have made in the FF are buttery, brews that I have made several times in carboys before without this feedback.

My latest one is a 4% german pilsner that clearly didn't clean up (wyeast 2308 munich lager, 2 step starter 2L each; pitched at 50, fermented there for 4 days then up to 58 until things were almost done, then finished at 64 for 4 days as a diacetyl rest; OG: 1.040 FG:1.011). I did get a really nice collection of clean yeast in the ball at the bottom which I have been able to repitch, some of which I krausened and repitch into the keg to clean things up. I'm still waiting on the results of that, but if it does clean it up then it seems like it might point to an aspect of the FF that needs particular attention.

Has anyone else had such experiences with it? I really like the conical, but if I get cleanup issues then it makes using it a bit more of a hassel (krausen up some collected yeast for ever batch and dump it on top maybe?).

I have similar concerns. I am leaving the valve shut until everything is done.

Yeast isn't as clean for sure but the yeast stay in contact that way.

 

[NateBrew]

I did try leaving the valve closed so the stuff would stay above, but I found that the yeast made a plug that wouldn't break and I ended up racking off the top (that was Wyeast 1968). I considered hooking up a CO2 line to the hose adapter and blowing some CO2 in the bottom to break up the clot, but never did. I guess I could have done that after everything was done and then let the yeast resettle back into the ball.

 

[jbb3]

Yeast remains in suspension so I'm not sure the concern about the yeast not cleaning up the beer because it's not in "contact" is a real thing??

Active yeast doesn't just sit there until something yummy comes by then takes a bite out of it when it does.

I could be over simplifying things but this theory doesn't make sense to me...

 

[NateBrew]

From several places I have heard/read that the area of exposed yeast is proportional to the ability of the yeast to clean up. If I understand it correctly, this is the same reason that a certain big brewer uses beechwood as a landing zone (so to speak) for the yeast. The high surface area of that medium allows for a faster cleanup of the final product.

I had figured that the suspended yeast would be sufficient, but I am having a hard time determining why I would have that stuff left over in the beer given the fact that I did a diacetyl rest for several days on all the beers I have made.

Here is one citation for that tidbit of thought, under "Diacetyl Removal" about half way down:
http://byo.com/hops/item/546-diacetyl-homebrew-science

 

[jbb3]

You got me. And I have no experience with lagers.

 

[Hoppslover]

Have any of you dry hopped in the Fastferment? Just wondering what I need to do?

 

[jbb3]

Have any of you dry hopped in the Fastferment? Just wondering what I need to do?

Check the other FF thread. Or maybe someone else can chine in...

 

[ChefRex]

Yeast remains in suspension so I'm not sure the concern about the yeast not cleaning up the beer because it's not in "contact" is a real thing??

Active yeast doesn't just sit there until something yummy comes by then takes a bite out of it when it does.

I could be over simplifying things but this theory doesn't make sense to me...

Under heavy magnification,
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_rnmHMqnM[/ame]

 

[jbb3]

under heavy magnification,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj_rnmhmqnm

lol

 

[mxstar21]

Have any of you dry hopped in the Fastferment? Just wondering what I need to do?

Add hops as you would any other fermenter. I didn't do anything differently. What is your concern?

 

[elreplica]

The guys at FastFerment are excellent in responding to concerns regarding their products. In fact, Casey is sending me two gaskets for both FastFerments...I'm thinking the "bitches" on here should try a Chinese buying experience and see what kinds of responses and resolutions they receive. I'm also thinking they should try the contact info easily available and then if not satisfied, raise hell on social media and elsewhere. But at least give the people a chance to respond and/or fix

 

[jbb3]

Add hops as you would any other fermenter. I didn't do anything differently. What is your concern?

I replied in the other thread, but I didn't do anything different either except for sanitizing a set of tongs so I could remove the hop sack from the FF prior to draining. The first time I dry-hopped in the FF, I didn't remove the hop sack and it took me a minute to figure out why the flow stopped...

 

[mxstar21]

Tie fishing line to it next time send the fishing line through the airlock hole through the lid and just pull it out. You can also just add the hops without the hopsack.

 

[jbb3]

Tie fishing line to it next time send the fishing line through the airlock hole through the lid and just pull it out. You can also just add the hops without the hopsack.

I like the fishing line thing! Now... where is that tackle box...??

I've seen several folks say that they adds hops directly to the wort. I assumed they were using whole hops and not pellets?? I use pellets and I get a gob a crap as it is with a hop sack. I can't imagine without a hops sack...

 

[mxstar21]

Just make sure to sanitize the fishing line.

You can toss pellets in without a hop sack too. If the hops don't settle down to the collection ball and float on top, you may just have to keep a close eye when racking to the keg or bottling bucket and close the valve as soon as you see the hop gunk come out. It's been awhile since I used my FF, but I think I tossed pellets in for dry hopping and they settled, but I can't remember for sure. I guess I need to make an IPA and test it out soon.

 

[brewburke]

This is going in my "complete piece of ****" list. I've been fermenting without trouble for three weeks. Was going to take it of the yeast today. Twisted the ball lock, then unscrewed the bottom. To my horror my beautiful brew leaked from the ball lock. Leaked. And leaked. And when I tried to screw the bottom back on,it kept leaking anyway. Yes, the large rubber washer was in place. I think the ball lock failed. ****ing piece of ****.

Same thing happened to me yesterday. Boy did I feel like an idiot after reading about the handle trick! !!

 

[CA_Mouse]

I replied in the other thread, but I didn't do anything different either except for sanitizing a set of tongs so I could remove the hop sack from the FF prior to draining. The first time I dry-hopped in the FF, I didn't remove the hop sack and it took me a minute to figure out why the flow stopped...

You can use unflavored, unwaxed dental floss too. I use this to suspend my dry hops, wood chips, cocoa nibs, etc in my kegs, it works great.

 

[redwing_al]

I like the fishing line thing! Now... where is that tackle box...??



I've seen several folks say that they adds hops directly to the wort. I assumed they were using whole hops and not pellets?? I use pellets and I get a gob a crap as it is with a hop sack. I can't imagine without a hops sack...

I use a large, steel, mesh tea infuser that I fill with hop pellets and toss that into the fermenter. The thing that I like about that is that when I empty the fermenter, I like the wort to pass by/through the infuser! As it's going into my keg.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[redwing_al]

hole hops and not pellets?? I use pellets and I get a gob a crap as it is with a hop sack. I can't imagine without a hops sack...[/QUOTE]


I use a large, steel, mesh tea infuser that I fill with hop pellets and toss that into the fermenter. The thing that I like about that is that when I empty the fermenter, I like the wort to pass by/through the infuser! As it's going into my keg.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[Floored]

My wife surprised me with one of these for my birthday today! Looks like I'll be adding more threads to read.

 

[jbb3]

My wife surprised me with one of these for my birthday today! Looks like I'll be adding more threads to read.

You've got a good women there!

Plenty to read on this thread...

Basically, put the time and care into cleaning up the threads. make sure you wrap the teflon tape clockwise, and you should be in good shape.

Also make sure you do a good leak test before you put the goodness inside...

Good luck!

 

[barneyfife]

Hi all,

Finished my first batch through the fastferment conical. A pilsner with wyeast 2278, 6 liter starter split between two 5.5 gallon batches into a 1.053 wort.

Dumped wort in, then waited 6 hours, then dumped collection ball of trub/break etc. Pitched yeast April 7, and today, May 10, SG @ 1.008, I removed collection ball to save yeast. Wow! I have never collected so much yeast before using buckets. It was thick mud, almost a quart. I like harvesting yeast

Should I let it sit for 24 hrs before kegging, to wait for the rest of the yeast to fall out?

Barney

 

[NateBrew]

I would just keg it. I doubt you are going to get much of a difference in the amount of suspended yeast in 24hr if you already waited weeks. My experience was like yours, lots of nice clean yeast collected at the end.

Did you taste the beer yet, and if so did you notice any yeast cleanup problems? That is the problem that I have been fighting with my beers (a pale ale and a pilsner), and I think it might be due to the structure of the collection ball isolating the yeast from the beer.

Did you do a heated diacetyl test (heat a sample to 150F for 15 min and check it)?

 

[NateBrew]

I brewed another pilsner (all the same as last time; OG=1.042, FG=1.011, Wyeast 2308) but didn't put the ball on the bottom of the conical after removing the trub that settled initially into it.

I left the batch for 2 weeks with the first week being the majority of primary ferment and the second week being mostly cleanup. The first week was spent at 50F, and the second week was at 58F. I took a sample of the beer tonight, it has been at terminal gravity for several days and there isn't any diacetyl that I can pick up on.

I did a heated sample diacetyl test and that didn't turn up anything.

I plan to leave it on there for another day or two to let things settle a bit more into the cone, then run the yeast out through the hose barb fitting into a jug and then the beer into a keg. Another option I considered was filling the ball with CO2 and then reattaching it and letting the yeast resettle after the CO2 bubbles out of the ball.

So it looks like not collecting the yeast in the ball initially allowed the beer to clean up and gave cleaner results than the previous attempts with the ball attached the whole time. As always, your mileage may vary...but I'm interested to hear if anyone else sees different results in the beer by just not collecting in the ball until everything is all done and cleaned up.

 

[Menhir]

I brewed another pilsner (all the same as last time; OG=1.042, FG=1.011, Wyeast 2308) but didn't put the ball on the bottom of the conical after removing the trub that settled initially into it.

I left the batch for 2 weeks with the first week being the majority of primary ferment and the second week being mostly cleanup. The first week was spent at 50F, and the second week was at 58F. I took a sample of the beer tonight, it has been at terminal gravity for several days and there isn't any diacetyl that I can pick up on.

I did a heated sample diacetyl test and that didn't turn up anything.

I plan to leave it on there for another day or two to let things settle a bit more into the cone, then run the yeast out through the hose barb fitting into a jug and then the beer into a keg. Another option I considered was filling the ball with CO2 and then reattaching it and letting the yeast resettle after the CO2 bubbles out of the ball.

So it looks like not collecting the yeast in the ball initially allowed the beer to clean up and gave cleaner results than the previous attempts with the ball attached the whole time. As always, your mileage may vary...but I'm interested to hear if anyone else sees different results in the beer by just not collecting in the ball until everything is all done and cleaned up.

I'm planning on getting a FastFermenter soon. I'm curious how well the yeast will move into the ball after having settled out in the conical area without the ball attached. I'm thinking that you might end up with a lot of yeast stuck to the sides of the fermenter above the ball which will make it difficult to keep your beer clear when you transfer it out of the conical.

 

[jbb3]

I'm planning on getting a FastFermenter soon. I'm curious how well the yeast will move into the ball after having settled out in the conical area without the ball attached. I'm thinking that you might end up with a lot of yeast stuck to the sides of the fermenter above the ball which will make it difficult to keep your beer clear when you transfer it out of the conical.

I've seen a few say they've had yeast/trub stuck in the conical above the ball. But I've never had that happen. I wonder if those that did have that happen, if maybe they didn't give it enough time??

I've had IPA batches where you could see solids piled up in the bottom of the conical almost up to the thermowell. And it can take 5 or 7 days before the trub descends into the CB. Give the yeast and gravity time to do their thing and it will all end up in the CB.

Also, don't be in such a hurry to do the first collection ball change. I don't touch it for at least 7 to 10 days.

 

[Wawster]

+1 with jbb3
I've just finished an IPA with a ton of solids. And I currently have a John Q Adams in there conical. I approached these 2 different ways.
The IPA, I emptied the ball after the initial fermentation only. Way too many solids in there, and even after emptying the ball, the solids were well into the conical, and so was the layer of yeast - you could see it through the wall. I just let the FF sit for several days, and the solids compacted into the ball. I emptied it again....let it sit several more days, and all the yeast was in the ball.
For the current brew, the solids were substantially less, but a lot of material was hung up on the side of the conical. I tapped the sides sharply a few times, and all of it slid down into the ball over time. Before I emptied it, a good part of the yeast was in the conical, but with several days of sitting after emptying the ball, it made it's way into the ball.
Now granted, I've had the ball attached the whole time. Even though the solids and yeast built up into the conical, the valve was open. But I have to think that it would be similar if the valve was closed and the ball detached.

Nate, I'd recommend letting the yeast settle into the ball. It's my thought that if you draw it out with the hose fitting, you might get some turbulence in the conical that would re-suspend a lot of it and cloud up your beer. but...that's just my HO....

Also, I don't have CO2....I bottle. And with several batches under my belton the FF, I have to agree with some others here - the air in the ball bubbling up through the FF when you change it does absolutely nothing to the beer. It is in contact with the beer for a very short time, and as soon as it bubbles up through, the CO2 layer on the top pushes any oxygen up and out of contact with the beer. No stale or off flavors in any batch so far, even after conditioning for a couple of months. If you wish to be careful and fill it with CO2, there's no harm, of course, but I don't think it needed at all.

 

[NateBrew]

As far as stuff getting stuck above the ball, the only thing that I have seen this with is the Wyeast 1968, which makes a brick of yeast cake when it floc's out. Other yeasts have maintained some level of fluidity and will eventually move.

I think this time I will try running the stuff out with the hose fitting and next time I'll try the ball. The air/CO2 going up through the liquid is going to stir the stuff back up in any case, but as some have stated, I'm sure that it will all settle back out reasonably quickly given some time. If some yeast does get kicked up, it shouldn't matter too much since I will gelatin the keg to clear it after some conditioning time in the fridge anyway.

To the point of the air vs CO2 in the ball, I'm sure in many cases it would be hard to tell but I'm making pale lagers (helles and pilsner) in which a little oxidation goes a long way. I think for those that are bottling, the introduction of some more sugar causing the yeast to wake up and do their thing should be effective at scrubbing any dissolved oxygen in the liquid. I guess I could try naturally carbonating the keg, I have done this using the krausening technique before and it worked great (and scrubbed out some diacetyl I had left over from a previous experiment with how to use the setup).