Fast Souring - Modern Methods

[OldDogBrewing]

L. plantarum is great for souring wort. However, the modern souring methods described in this thread are arguably a much better approach than souring wort.


Many species of Lactobacillus are not as good at souring as L. plantarum. The species matters. L. plantarum is also generally the fastest.


I'm not really sure what you mean. The color of the wort doesn't affect the souring.


I'm sure you can make a fine beer that way, but it's not really the optimal method for several reasons.

Cheers

The colour doesn't affect sourness but roasty flavours and dark flavours in general don't go well with sourness IMO, so I will give it just a day to lower it to mid 4s probably so Brett can have a better start and create more esters and sub products

I think that the modern method would be a bit harder to have a control on the final ph and sourness on the palate and if it's too sour I won't like it as in dark beers I don't generally like sourness, but if this works well I will give it a try with an unhopped version of the stout next time with the modern method

 

[RPh_Guy]

I will give it just a day to lower it to mid 4s probably so Brett can have a better start and create more esters and sub products

Acidity decreases ester formation

I think that the modern method would be a bit harder to have a control on the final ph

Why is that?

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Acidity decreases ester formation


Why is that?

I know it decreases but apparently it makes for a better start which should give more esters, I will try both things over the time, now a presoured wort and later a non sour wort and see what changes

I understand that killing or stopping the lacto with hops, may not stop the souring on the spot and it might keep souring a bit more while heat should kill it instantly, at least that's what I think, maybe I'm wrong and a hop tea it's a full stop in souring

 

[RPh_Guy]

I know it decreases but apparently it makes for a better start which should give more esters

It's well-known that acidity decreases ester formation by yeast. This is easy to demonstrate for yourself if your try both methods. Both Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces character is muted in pre-soured beer, and co-soured beer to some extent.

I understand that killing or stopping the lacto with hops, may not stop the souring on the spot and it might keep souring a bit more while heat should kill it instantly, at least that's what I think, maybe I'm

Anecdotal evidence including my own experience suggests that a hop additional will immediately stop souring by the bacteria, and thus the sour taste. However, the pH may continue to drop due to yeast fermentation (regardless of what method is used).

Cheers

 

[OldDogBrewing]

It's well-known that acidity decreases ester formation by yeast. This is easy to demonstrate for yourself if your try both methods. Both Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces character is muted in pre-soured beer, and co-soured beer to some extent.


Anecdotal evidence including my own experience suggests that a hop additional will immediately stop souring by the bacteria, and thus the sour taste. However, the pH may continue to drop due to yeast fermentation (regardless of what method is used).

Cheers

Yes, it should decrease total esters quantities but through a lower pH I'm expecting to reduce other compounds thus making esters more noticeable sensory wise speaking, basically I will try to produce a faster and healthier fermentation to obtain a better flavour, even considering the loss of esters, it might be a good idea to try it with the strain that I'm considering, which is B. Lambicus

I still have to figure out the grist but I might be able to split the batch and see how both methods work

 

[The M]

Latest co-sour, raspberry & cherry. Gotta love this method

 

[tizoc]

Now that winter is about to end here, I plan to get back into brewing fast sours soon. Something I want to try, is blending of sour beer with wine (mainly because I find it much easier to get good wine than to get good grapes), starting with a ~4-5% abv post/co-soured saison blended with white wine.

Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.

 

[Beer666]

I kegged bottled my second bretted sour beer last week. 100% brett WLP4203 beersel blend finished at 1002 with the help of gluco. Oaked and dry hopped with citra. Such a complex beer, works perfectly with no boil as well.
I really feel like i hit the jackpot finding this thread and once you have all the bugs its a very cheap beer to make. Next one will be using WLP644 again so it fully attenuates along with the 3 different bretts i have.

 

[tizoc]

Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.

Guys... I thought my L. Plantarum always stopped at around 3.1-3.3

I didn't calibrate my pH-meter this time because I'm out of solution so measurement could be off. But it tastes quite a bit more sour than last time (but FG is lower too, which probably has an effect on perception, and yeast is different too).

I used the same procedure as last time, but I pitched the lacto started earlier (+20hs since sacc pitch, was +24hs last time, and I got a bit of the calcium carbonate into the fermenter). FG is 1.002, fermentation temperature was quite a bit higher, and I used a different yeast (19C with WLP029 vs 21C->25C with BE-134 this time).

I have not added the white wine yet because I'm going to do that when I bottle, and I haven't had the time yet (will probably do so tomorrow or saturday).

Anyway, it tastes quite good, just a bit little sulphury right now, but thats going to be going away with a bit of time.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Next one will be using WLP644 again so it fully attenuates along with the 3 different bretts i have.

Don't be surprised if it doesn't get down to 1.000 or lower. I had one with WLP644 + Brett + Lacto + glucoamylase finish at s.g. 1.002.

I didn't calibrate my pH-meter this time

I'd certainly question the reading.

FYI I've read warnings about getting the calcium carbonate in the fermenter, but from what I can tell, it only makes the beer more sour.

....
Glad you guys are making great sour beer!
Cheers

 

[toadie]

My latest co-sour reached 3.2. Wow sour but delicious! Quick question my glucoamylase just arrived in the mail. I've heard or read that the enzyme can easily be transferred to a different brew without rigorous cleaning methods. Like for example my biab bag. Is this a thing?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My latest co-sour reached 3.2. Wow sour but delicious! Quick question my glucoamylase just arrived in the mail. I've heard or read that the enzyme can easily be transferred to a different brew without rigorous cleaning methods. Like for example my biab bag. Is this a thing?

An enzyme is simply a protein, so it is removed by standard cleaning methods using an alkaline step like PBW.

Glucoamylase is by far most effective when used in the fermenter rather than during the mash, so it shouldn't generally touch your BIAB bag.

Happy to answer any questions. Cheers!

 

[toadie]

Thanks for the quick reply! So a bottling bucket and transferring siphon (in my case) just need to be cleaned with PBW? Perfect thanks again. I also added some brett dregs that I cultured for a week to a number of thicker bottles and am looking forward to comparing them in the future! I used a disposable pipette to add the brett, it was a bit clunky but relatively easy.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the quick reply! So a bottling bucket and transferring siphon (in my case) just need to be cleaned with PBW? Perfect thanks again. I also added some brett dregs that I cultured for a week to a number of thicker bottles and am looking forward to comparing them in the future! I used a disposable pipette to add the brett, it was a bit clunky but relatively easy.

Yeah that sounds fine.
Be aware that if you're adding Brett to beer that's already sour and fermented, the character will most likely be muted due to the sourness and it probably take a while to develop (a few months).

 

[toadie]

Yup thanks. I was planning on giving one a try around Christmas. I've been a little gun shy to go all in on a Brett beer so this is like my gateway attempt. Thanks again. It's been nice to have you around for all the advice! Also the website looks good too!

 

[RCope]

Mango Sour success! My first blueberry sour attempt was a dud due to underpitching the l. plantarum. This one I co-pitched 6 capsules and 4 good belly shots (thanks @RPh_Guy and @fendersrule ). The result was perfectly sour:

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Made a Lacto starter today for a kind of sour belgian witt, I'm brewing it tomorrow or Monday depending on how the lacto goes.

The only doubt I have is regarding the hop tea, which is the minimum amount of time I should boil it? I know we are looking to isomerize alpha acids, but for how long? I will be relaying on other herbs for bittering so I just need enough AA to stop the lacto activity
I'm pretty lost regarding the volume of the hop tea too, as it's a low ABV beer, I need to use the minimum amount posible to avoid diluting the beer too much, how much hop tea do I need to effectively stop souring in a 1 Gallon batch?

 

[FrozenOcean]

So I made a sour beer last year using these methods. It worked, but it wasn't interesting... I just made a super basic beer, co-fermented with US-05, then an attempt at a hop tea.

There's a lot of good ideas in here, but are there any actual recipes to follow? I'd like to do something with fruit.

 

[fendersrule]

I've made plenty of fruit sours that people love. You can look back a few threads where I should have posted plenty of info.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The only doubt I have is regarding the hop tea, which is the minimum amount of time I should boil it?

I have good results boiling it 5–10 minutes. You could also just bring the water to a boil and just let the hops steep

For 1 gallon I would use at least 0.1 oz hops depending on how much flavor you want, and around 100mL water.

Dry hopping is also an option since isomerization is not necessary.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

I have good results boiling it 5–10 minutes. You could also just bring the water to a boil and just let the hops steep

For 1 gallon I would use at least 0.1 oz hops depending on how much flavor you want, and around 100mL water.

Dry hopping is also an option since isomerization is not necessary.

Thanks

I'm thinking in giving it a DH too, but after the hop tea

 

[OldDogBrewing]

So today I did the DH as I was planning on a moderate sourness to make it more refreshing but not full sour

It took nearly a week to sour it to this point, is it possible that some of the herbs I added, made the lacto go slower? I pitched the whole 200ml of starter to a 1 gallon batch

 

[RPh_Guy]

is it possible that some of the herbs I added, made the lacto go slower?

That's fairly unlikely based on the limited research I've done with gruit herbs. However many other factors can affect the perception of sourness or the Lacto activity, so it would be difficult for me to determine the likely cause without a lot more details.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

That's fairly unlikely based on the limited research I've done with gruit herbs. However many other factors can affect the perception of sourness or the Lacto activity, so it would be difficult for me to determine the likely cause without a lot more details.

That's what I thought, I added them because I assumed it wouldn't affect as they are not really antibacterial like it was thought in the past

I will try to take a pH reading but my pH meter is probably the less accurate one in the whole world, so let's see

 

[tizoc]

Brewed this yesterday (50/50 pils/wheat, low-oxygen, 30mins boil, 1.033 OG, pitched BE-134, expecting it to go down to about 1.003 for ~4% ABV + a bit extra from the wine), and pitched the lacto starter earlier today (about 20 hours post-sacc-pitch). I think I got a bit too much of the calcium carbonate getting into the fermenter, I hope that doesn't hurt the batch

I will probably mix the white wine in tomorrow (a single bottle this time), but I will measure the sulfite with some strips I have, and try the expend them if I see that the value is high.

Update on this one: I'm very happy with the result, this beer is very "champagney", which is what I was aiming for. I think it would be good even without the wine, but the white wine really adds an extra. I think a single bottle in a 20L batch is plenty, and I would not add more. I really liked BE-134 as the sacc yeast to use along with the lacto, the high attenuation makes all the flavors come through and it tastes very "bright".

I brewed a stronger (1.051->1.008) one with WB-06 and a far more complex grist (55/29/10/4/2 pils/munich/caramunich III/special b/chocolat) that I bottled a week ago. I added a bottle of natural (without added sulfites) Tannat wine. Although it is still too early, I gave it a taste yesterday: there was still yeast in suspension and it tasted a bit yeasty, but otherwise was shaping into something very interesting already.

Will be brewing a few non-sour beers next to re-fill my empty kegs, but once I get back to this I plan to also add brett in the next wine-sour (just got some glucoamylase, so that I can use the fast method). Either that or I will start experimenting with hop additions after the souring is complete.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Update on this one: I'm very happy with the result, this beer is very "champagney", which is what I was aiming for. I think it would be good even without the wine, but the white wine really adds an extra. I think a single bottle in a 20L batch is plenty, and I would not add more. I really liked BE-134 as the sacc yeast to use along with the lacto, the high attenuation makes all the flavors come through and it tastes very "bright".

I brewed a stronger (1.051->1.008) one with WB-06 and a far more complex grist (55/29/10/4/2 pils/munich/caramunich III/special b/chocolat) that I bottled a week ago. I added a bottle of natural (without added sulfites) Tannat wine. Although it is still too early, I gave it a taste yesterday: there was still yeast in suspension and it tasted a bit yeasty, but otherwise was shaping into something very interesting already.

Will be brewing a few non-sour beers next to re-fill my empty kegs, but once I get back to this I plan to also add brett in the next wine-sour (just got some glucoamylase, so that I can use the fast method). Either that or I will start experimenting with hop additions after the souring is complete.

Sounds great!

Today I'm attempting a low-oxygen mixed-fermentation sour with Brett. If successful, I assume this will be the first beer of its kind ever produced.

Cheers

 

[goodolarchie]

It seems like Facebook has that effect on people.

Facebook is the reason I'm here, and not there. Frankly I think the MTF crew made a mistake hitching their wagon to that platform in terms of moving the discussion and mixed-ferm community forward, but I'm incredibly grateful for the wiki / podcast.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in the "let the bugs live" movement, even if it means delay pitching sacch/brett or using hops. I'd rather just use some weapons-grade Lacto / Pedio that I know will strip the tarmac off the airport grounds if it were allowed..

 

[Dgallo]

Facebook is the reason I'm here, and not there. Frankly I think the MTF crew made a mistake hitching their wagon to that platform in terms of moving the discussion and mixed-ferm community forward, but I'm incredibly grateful for the wiki / podcast.

Anyway, I'm a big believer in the "let the bugs live" movement, even if it means delay pitching sacch/brett or using hops. I'd rather just use some weapons-grade Lacto / Pedio that I know will strip the tarmac off the airport grounds if it were allowed..

I’m lost, why are you upset about the MTF fb group. The same knowledgeable people are in that group that are in here. Granted there is bad advice on there from ppl but you get just as bad advice on HBT as you would on there lol

 

[goodolarchie]

I’m lost, why are you upset about the MTF fb group. The same knowledgeable people are in that group that are in here. Granted there is bad advice on there from ppl but you get just as bad advice on HBT as you would on there lol

The group is great, the platform is awful, and holding them hostage apparently. If you want to know more about why it's bad, feel free to PM me.

 

[Dgallo]

The group is great, the platform is awful, and holding them hostage apparently. If you want to know more about why it's bad, feel free to PM me.

Gotcha. I thought you were referring to the group, my bad. FB itself is terrible, once they gave themselves the rights to terminate post that “go against the mission of fb” they became the biggest censored media outlet in the world.