Fall Planting

[Arkie Grower]

Wanting to plant Canadian Red Vine this fall for a University of Arkansas project. Rhizomes, mother plants, live plants etc Nothing available commercially. Anybody have any suggestions?

 

[ba-brewer]

https://www.greatlakeshops.com/store/p50/CanadianRedVine

edit: oops, did not see it said was sold out

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Wanting to plant Canadian Red Vine this fall for a University of Arkansas project. Rhizomes, mother plants, live plants etc Nothing available commercially. Anybody have any suggestions?

I wouldn't sweat it - just have a word with Great Lakes directly. Now is the "dead" time for hop vendors - in the UK at least they tend to update their websites in September ahead of the main shipping season before Christmas. But it never hurts to ask - one of my acquisitions this year came from an email asking if they happened to have any left of a variety that was notionally out of stock - turned out they'd had a bit of a disaster that meant they only had a couple left, so they hadn't bothered putting it on the list at all this year but could sell me an odd one.

CRV is interesting, I assume it must be related to the Belgian red bines somehow. They were very much second-rank hops, all about quantity rather than quality. I've brewed with Tolhurst which is a British member of the family that was briefly popular a century ago as it had double the yields of other hops;I can see why brewers hated it. There was a damning report written on its brewing qualities in the early 1920s - short version is that it had low and variable alpha, down to 2% in some years but quite high beta. The recommendation was that it should only be used for things like mild where you want the preservative effect of the beta acids but don't mind about the lack of bitterness - back then alpha was all they really cared about. Most were grubbed up within a few years as demand just dropped away.

 

[Apimyces]

I wouldn't sweat it - just have a word with Great Lakes directly. Now is the "dead" time for hop vendors - in the UK at least they tend to update their websites in September ahead of the main shipping season before Christmas. But it never hurts to ask - one of my acquisitions this year came from an email asking if they happened to have any left of a variety that was notionally out of stock - turned out they'd had a bit of a disaster that meant they only had a couple left, so they hadn't bothered putting it on the list at all this year but could sell me an odd one.

CRV is interesting, I assume it must be related to the Belgian red bines somehow. They were very much second-rank hops, all about quantity rather than quality. I've brewed with Tolhurst which is a British member of the family that was briefly popular a century ago as it had double the yields of other hops;I can see why brewers hated it. There was a damning report written on its brewing qualities in the early 1920s - short version is that it had low and variable alpha, down to 2% in some years but quite high beta. The recommendation was that it should only be used for things like mild where you want the preservative effect of the beta acids but don't mind about the lack of bitterness - back then alpha was all they really cared about. Most were grubbed up within a few years as demand just dropped away.

Well, as you say, back then alphas were largely what they were looking for. I think the general attitude towards hops has greatly evolved over the last few decades, and that a lot of things on the market now would never have been adopted if we go back in time.

CRV might be lacking in alphas compared to super alpha varieties... but 5% is by no means "low". I can't say for this one specifically, but I think that a lot of the older cultivars that never really picked up back in the days would have had a better chance at it today, where a "different" aroma or taste is no longer considered a serious flaw. That said, CRV is said to be susceptible to mildew, and I've never really seen any praise for its aroma, so...

I'm curious, though. Why do you need Canadian Red Vine for your project?

 

[Arkie Grower]

Well, as you say, back then alphas were largely what they were looking for. I think the general attitude towards hops has greatly evolved over the last few decades, and that a lot of things on the market now would never have been adopted if we go back in time.

CRV might be lacking in alphas compared to super alpha varieties... but 5% is by no means "low". I can't say for this one specifically, but I think that a lot of the older cultivars that never really picked up back in the days would have had a better chance at it today, where a "different" aroma or taste is no longer considered a serious flaw. That said, CRV is said to be susceptible to mildew, and I've never really seen any praise for its aroma, so...

I'm curious, though. Why do you need Canadian Red Vine for your project?

I can’t truly answer your question. I am one of the growers and the university horticulturist requested crv. I have never heard of the hop before the request. BTW what’s your connection to this (copied off the internet) “Northern Brewer is a well-known dual-use hop developed at Wye College in 1934. Currently, it is being grown in several countries around the world. The original was a cross between Canterbury Golding and a Brewer’s Gold male.” Oh and thanks mate for your input I emailed the supplier and am waiting for a response!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

CRV might be lacking in alphas compared to super alpha varieties... but 5% is by no means "low". I can't say for this one specifically, but I think that a lot of the older cultivars that never really picked up back in the days would have had a better chance at it today, where a "different" aroma or taste is no longer considered a serious flaw. That said, CRV is said to be susceptible to mildew, and I've never really seen any praise for its aroma, so...

Hey, I normally bitter with trad British varieties in the 5-6% range, so I know all about "low" alpha - but 2% was uncompetitive even a century ago. And my experience with Tolhurst is that it's not one of the early Wye crosses with US hops that were rejected for their "American" flavour (Ernest being the poster-child of those) - Tolhurst is a "landrace" (??) that simply doesn't taste of much. So if it doesn't have flavour, and doesn't have alpha, then you can see why it didn't last long.

I'm not saying that CRV is the same as Tolhurst, but Tolhurst represents one data point for the red bine family which have otherwise pretty much disappeared from commercial cultivation.

 

[Apimyces]

Hey, I normally bitter with trad British varieties in the 5-6% range, so I know all about "low" alpha - but 2% was uncompetitive even a century ago. And my experience with Tolhurst is that it's not one of the early Wye crosses with US hops that were rejected for their "American" flavour (Ernest being the poster-child of those) - Tolhurst is a "landrace" (??) that simply doesn't taste of much. So if it doesn't have flavour, and doesn't have alpha, then you can see why it didn't last long.

I'm not saying that CRV is the same as Tolhurst, but Tolhurst represents one data point for the red bine family which have otherwise pretty much disappeared from commercial cultivation.

Yea, I'm not saying it's anything, I've never grown it, never had my hands on any cones. Apparently it's even been put into question whether it's even canadian at all.

 

[Arkie Grower]

Hey, I normally bitter with trad British varieties in the 5-6% range, so I know all about "low" alpha - but 2% was uncompetitive even a century ago. And my experience with Tolhurst is that it's not one of the early Wye crosses with US hops that were rejected for their "American" flavour (Ernest being the poster-child of those) - Tolhurst is a "landrace" (??) that simply doesn't taste of much. So if it doesn't have flavour, and doesn't have alpha, then you can see why it didn't last long.

I'm not saying that CRV is the same as Tolhurst, but Tolhurst represents one data point for the red bine family which have otherwise pretty much disappeared from commercial cultivation.

Yea, I'm not saying it's anything, I've never grown it, never had my hands on any cones. Apparently it's even been put into question whether it's even canadian at all.

Thanks for the info guys. May be a mute point if I can't find any plants/rhizomes.

 

[B-Hoppy]

Back around '88 or '89 I was living in Upstate NY and met a fellow who gave me some cuttings, one of which was CRV. A few years later I ended up meeting Al Haunold out in Oregon and he asked me to send him some cuttings that he could grow and then perform an oil analysis on to determine the variety, he did. http://allaboutbeer.com/canadian-red-vine/ The pic in the middle of the article shows how much rhizome growth this variety puts out in a single year. Still have that beast growing today, haha!