Failure of Brewha BIAC

[mdbrewer1]

Methinks you have a personal relationship with the owner if anything that has happened hurts you inside, which puts your objectivity in question.

I do think it would sway some buyers, and this particular market only has so many. Not only the failure of the part, but also the way the subsequent interaction was handled. That might be even more of a factor for some.

 

[limulus]

I have read through this entire thread all 21 pages as well as the 42 pages of this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=452229&page=42

I am a potential BIAC customer and all I can say is although Nathan should have stepped up just to cover his reputation I also understand it was part user fault part manf fault.

Either way after reading 60+ pages on the device and only having a couple failures which although could have been protected with a PR are still users fault. there are many more people that consistently have success on the BIAC.

it hurts me inside to know Nathan didnt step up to save himself this thread of negativity but if anyone is serious about buying a BIAC they will read the thread i listed above and see its pretty much 99% success rate with the BIACS.

I hope Nathan is reading this and i still think he should step up and replace the conical but in the end even if he doesn't I don't think its going to sway any SERIOUS buyers to not buy it.

As one of those owners, I agree with you. The loss of one sale will cost him more than a replacement 3-in-1 unit. But I do still like mine.

 

[kh54s10]

I have read through this entire thread all 21 pages as well as the 42 pages of this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=452229&page=42

I am a potential BIAC customer and all I can say is although Nathan should have stepped up just to cover his reputation I also understand it was part user fault part manf fault.

Either way after reading 60+ pages on the device and only having a couple failures which although could have been protected with a PR are still users fault. there are many more people that consistently have success on the BIAC.

it hurts me inside to know Nathan didnt step up to save himself this thread of negativity but if anyone is serious about buying a BIAC they will read the thread i listed above and see its pretty much 99% success rate with the BIACS.

I hope Nathan is reading this and i still think he should step up and replace the conical but in the end even if he doesn't I don't think its going to sway any SERIOUS buyers to not buy it.

I am not in the market for one of these and will most likely never be.. But with the omission of a $10 part and the unwillingness to make any reparations, I would seriously think long and hard before I would make a purchase.

As said before, if even one potential customer decided not to buy it cost the company more than replacing the damaged one. I am sure it could have had parts replaced at far less cost than replacing with a new one. That should be standard practice in a case like this.

 

[duggyb]

Methinks you have a personal relationship with the owner if anything that has happened hurts you inside, which puts your objectivity in question.

I do think it would sway some buyers, and this particular market only has so many. Not only the failure of the part, but also the way the subsequent interaction was handled. That might be even more of a factor for some.

No relationship with the Nathan, I am actually just getting into homebrew, dont own equipment other than fermentation things(you can view my other threads to see the questions i have been asking)

That being said i am in the market for a all in one all grain setup and was looking at the brew easy before.

The reason i say it hurts is because i work in Sales and i travel all over Western Canada selling window tint and vinyl and paint protection film(that 3m stuff for the front of your car to stop rock chips) and i know how damn hard it is to build rep. and how easily one measly thread on a message board can bring it back down to 0 fast.

I don't wish that kind of rep crushing thread on anyone, even my competitors it just plain sucks so i wish Nathan would have fixed it.

I am not in the market for one of these and will most likely never be.. But with the omission of a $10 part and the unwillingness to make any reparations, I would seriously think long and hard before I would make a purchase.

As said before, if even one potential customer decided not to buy it cost the company more than replacing the damaged one. I am sure it could have had parts replaced at far less cost than replacing with a new one. That should be standard practice in a case like this.

I agree with this statement but i think it not being an option to have the WPR was a mistake(and an acceptable one at that because he is a new product and new business, growing pains i say)

But now that it is an option to add it on i think that's more than acceptable. Not to mention there is warning labels hanging directly on the conical when you buy it(see pic in this thread)

and once again on a final note, anyone with the cash, like myself who is seriously considering buying this unit wont let an early development mistake sway them away from what appears to be the best all in one setup on the market once a $103(CAD) WPR is added.

 

[terrapin421]

I read through this thread in its entirety and just bought one...

 

[Hello]

I read through this thread in its entirety and just bought one...

Ok. Are you saying this thread did nothing to sway your decision? Not sure the point of the post.

 

[geoffey]

Ok. Are you saying this thread did nothing to sway your decision? Not sure the point of the post.

I assume the point was that he read the whole thread and bought one in spite of it. He's just chiming in his two cents which is interesting because the assumption/opinion by many in this thread is that anyone considering buying one would decide not to after reading this thread. Which is clearly not the case with him.

My two cents: I'm not in the market anytime soon for one of these, and likely never will be. But this thread would never keep me from buying one. I'd be MUCH more cautious about purchasing one, that's for certain. But after spending time on their website it looks to me like it is pretty clear what steps need to be taken to avoid buckling this thing and they make it pretty clear. Yes, I'd feel much better about it if they built these failsafes into the product and I hope they still elect to do that someday. But I'm not dissuaded from buying one.

 

[duggyb]

I assume the point was that he read the whole thread and bought one in spite of it. He's just chiming in his two cents which is interesting because the assumption/opinion by many in this thread is that anyone considering buying one would decide not to after reading this thread. Which is clearly not the case with him.

My two cents: I'm not in the market anytime soon for one of these, and likely never will be. But this thread would never keep me from buying one. I'd be MUCH more cautious about purchasing one, that's for certain. But after spending time on their website it looks to me like it is pretty clear what steps need to be taken to avoid buckling this thing and they make it pretty clear. Yes, I'd feel much better about it if they built these failsafes into the product and I hope they still elect to do that someday. But I'm not dissuaded from buying one.

Wow you worded that much better then me, but definitely the point i was trying to get across as well!

 

[terrapin421]

I assume the point was that he read the whole thread and bought one in spite of it. He's just chiming in his two cents which is interesting because the assumption/opinion by many in this thread is that anyone considering buying one would decide not to after reading this thread. Which is clearly not the case with him.

Exactly. I figured my actions speaking louder than words would convey this - but happy to elaborate further real quick:

- Obviously I feel for the guy who had the issue and am hoping never to be on the boards venting about one of my own. However, there are 2 sides to the story and I heard the Owner's side (explicitly asked/referenced this thread) and felt confident moving forward with the purchase. I won't paraphrase our conversation here (he is more than receptive to answer calls if that helps any of the naysayers wondering why he didn't participate in this thread) because it's his company and anyone looking for clarification on this matter should hear it from him -- not me.

- The customer service I received while researching and ordering this was exemplary. I'm sure skeptics will claim that it's because he is selling something/wait until after you have issues -- however I never had to wait more than 20-30 minutes for a return phone call at any point. I feel like I can work my way up the learning curve and should I have any single question during the brewing process I'm not far from an answer.

- The literature/videos on the website are very helpful in explaining a lot of things. Furthermore I got an e-mail with my receipt that I had to "Acknowledge" in order for my purchase to be valid. In this e-mail was a list of Do's Don't's for the setup --- again this is probably in response to the issue/an ex-post response -- but it was very explicit in how I could ruin my new setup



Net Takeaway: This system ended up being the best "value" and most usable setup for my current situation. When I move out of an apartment and have room to build an Electric Brewery I will do so -- and hopefully continue to use the small BIAC for test batches...but for those saying he's ruined his business - I know I'm only one data point - but had no issues whatsoever moving forward with my purchase.

 

[Jimmy82]

That's right.

 

[cantrell00]

This string of votes in favor of the product seem much more than simple coincidence to me.

He is apparently a smarter businessman than I thought.. kudos.

 

[limulus]

This string of votes in favor of the product seem much more than simple coincidence to me.

He is apparently a smarter businessman than I thought.. kudos.

What do you mean? I have one in my garage and I live in suburban Atlanta, not Vancouver. I do not know Nathan. I bought mine because I wanted an electric solution that takes up little room in my garage. I am over 50 and I did not want to build any more brewing equipment. I narrowed my search down to the Speidel Braumeister, the Blichmann BrewEasy and the BIAC. I bought this and a new glycol system because I wanted plug-n-play and I can afford it. I have just this week offered pretty much all my old brewing equipment for sale (at steals). I would think you were a troll if you did not have many posts.

It is obvious Nathan is not going to replace the collapsed fermenter (although he probably should have). I feel bad for the guy who had the incident. The website is very detailed and has a lot of information to absorb. I do not think a pressure regulator should be standard equipment. It should be an option that you have to accept or reject by clicking a button acknowledging your choice.

 

[terrapin421]

This string of votes in favor of the product seem much more than simple coincidence to me.

He is apparently a smarter businessman than I thought.. kudos.

You hit the nail on the head with your second statement...... I read the facts in this thread and thought "no way - not for me." Pieced together that he was very receptive to questions so discussed the issues with him at length.... This forum has a wealth of information from so many knowledgeable people -- that said, a 30 minute conversation can encompass a heck of a lot more than 30 pages of threads --- and is certainly more fluid. Will he lose a sale or two from this publicity? Maybe. Did he at least pick up one sale from me by his other customers raving about his accessibility and customer service? Yup.


Following my discussion I continued my research and became more comfortable with quality control/manufacturing issues and placed an order. I am order #1XXX. I'm not sure if he's actually sold >1k of these but even if he's only sold 100 the failure rate looks low. Some users are approaching the 1 year mark and if there are other angry customers then they either didn't have the motivation to post on the forum or were taken care of. Were there potentially some missteps that every startup makes along the way? Sounds like it.... poor product quality? I guess I'll find out over the coming months but I'm hoping my odds/risk are much less than 5% (and potentially sub 1%) which hardly seems worrisome.

No "coincidences" on my front (I'm a conspiracy theorist and thought "Jimmy" might be planted but stumbled across him on another forum a year ago asking elementary questions during his setup so believed his story/passion to check out) --- I took a 6 year brewing hiatus because I didn't think I could generate the quality I wanted in a NYC apartment. Began my research from a very low level of knowledge (didn't even know what the heck electric brewing was) a month ago and will happily post my experiences w. the BIAC for better or worse.

 

[limulus]

Now that I read terrapin421s post, I may have misinterpreted your post cantrell00. I thought you were suggesting those of us who have good things to say are shills. Maybe, you were not.

 

[Zymurg]

A lot of people have made the assumption that the deformation was from water pressure, no way 80 psi municipal water pressure bent stainless steel sheet like that.

The pictures suggest the vessel was sealed after the boil when the chill water was applied. That would have created a huge vacuum in the vessel, certainly enough to deform it.

I believe this wasn't a manufacturer's pressure fault, it was a user's vacuum fault.

 

[cuda6pak]

I believe this wasn't a manufacturer's pressure fault, it was a user's vacuum fault.

I have a feeling that it was a vacuum issue as well. If you set a cap, even without the gasket on, and there is any residual steam/condensation on the cap or lid, that thing is going to stick like glue and hold. I learned my first time cold crashing my BIAC as I loosely sat the female tri-clamp NPT fitting with the plug in place loosely on top in place of the blowoff. I figured without PTFE tape on the threads for the plug that it wouldn't seal tight enough. Well after crashing for about 45min I came back to check on it and slid the cap over and *whoooosh*. The starsan I sprayed on the triclamp blowoff before replacing it with the female NPT tri clamp fitting was enough to make a seal, even without a gasket or PTFE tape on it. Luckily I caught it in time and was cognizant of what I was doing otherwise I would have been in the same boat as the OP. And after all the literature I read prior to purchasing and directly after that was forwarded me the dangers of vacuum/pressuring the vessel, it would have pretty much been my own fault and I probably would have gritted my teeth and swallowed the cost of replacing the 3-in-1 myself.

 

[tonyj30]

I believe this wasn't a manufacturer's pressure fault, it was a user's vacuum fault.
hoe can it not be the manufacturers fault ? he designed and manufactured it without a simple pressure release valve. its not rocket science and for 5 grand it should have been included.

 

[jeffreybandel]

As an update for everyone I will say that I had the unit pounded out based on Nathans recommendation. It pounded out very easily---too easily. It is very thin metal and as someone else said "fragile". We are of the assumption these units will not last over time. Save your money guys and buy a durable piece of equipment that will last.

 

[cantrell00]

Wow.

Sensitive lot.

I'd freak the hell out too given the coin you guys dropped in that thing.

 

[RiverCityBrewer]

As an update for everyone I will say that I had the unit pounded out based on Nathans recommendation. It pounded out very easily---too easily. It is very thin metal and as someone else said "fragile". We are of the assumption these units will not last over time. Save your money guys and buy a durable piece of equipment that will last.

Based on your observations, are you thinking that its not actually 16 gauge stainless? I think sanke kegs have about 1.5mm walls, which would be about 16 gauge. Its hard to picture something of that thickness deforming so easily.

 

[trimixdiver1]

16g would not be that easy as he said, maybe the outside is 16g but not the inside.

 

[Zymurg]

I asked Nathan at Brewha specifically for the material used for the inner vessel construction, here's his reply:

Hi Ken,

Thank you for your inquiry!

The 3-in-1 is made with 1.5mm stainless steel. It is durable. I don't know of any homebrew equipment that uses thicker material (though it may be out there) and I am aware of many companies that use 0.8mm and 1.2mm. I list the pressure at 3psi for vessel and 5psi for jacket as this is a very safe margin for operation while allowing a brewer to do everything that is necessary for the brewing process.

To build the vessel for 80psi (e.g. municipal water) would require 1/4" steel, which would increase the cost dramatically as there would be additional material, transportation (it would be much heavier) and certification expense (anything above 15psi needs to be certified as a pressure vessel).

Does that address your concern?


1.5 mm stainless steel throughout is 16 ga. Seems like a reasonable gauge. In fact, it's industry standard for beer kegs.

For example, here's a link to another company that makes kettles and they are quite proud that theirs are made of 1.2mm steel. http://spikebrewing.com/pages/faqs

The Brewha seems to be well engineered and well built. This thread did help to make me do a lot more research into this system, but after analyzing what I've found, I still have the confidence to give Brewha my $5000 as I believe it to be well designed and well built. Maybe not perfect, but as good or better than anything else out there.

I've looked at the Sabco, but I don't have the floor space and I don't want gas. I've looked at the Blichmann Breweasy, but I'm not as impressed with the design or the execution, plus there's just more pieces to move around.

I'm prepared to pay the cost for a superior system. If once I start using it I find it less than satisfying, I will be sure to report my findings.

I will let the forum know in any case.

 

[Jimmy82]

I asked Nathan at Brewha specifically for the material used for the inner vessel construction, here's his reply:

Hi Ken,

Thank you for your inquiry!

The 3-in-1 is made with 1.5mm stainless steel. It is durable. I don't know of any homebrew equipment that uses thicker material (though it may be out there) and I am aware of many companies that use 0.8mm and 1.2mm. I list the pressure at 3psi for vessel and 5psi for jacket as this is a very safe margin for operation while allowing a brewer to do everything that is necessary for the brewing process.

To build the vessel for 80psi (e.g. municipal water) would require 1/4" steel, which would increase the cost dramatically as there would be additional material, transportation (it would be much heavier) and certification expense (anything above 15psi needs to be certified as a pressure vessel).

Does that address your concern?


1.5 mm stainless steel throughout is 16 ga. Seems like a reasonable gauge. In fact, it's industry standard for beer kegs.

For example, here's a link to another company that makes kettles and they are quite proud that theirs are made of 1.2mm steel. http://spikebrewing.com/pages/faqs

The Brewha seems to be well engineered and well built. This thread did help to make me do a lot more research into this system, but after analyzing what I've found, I still have the confidence to give Brewha my $5000 as I believe it to be well designed and well built. Maybe not perfect, but as good or better than anything else out there.

I've looked at the Sabco, but I don't have the floor space and I don't want gas. I've looked at the Blichmann Breweasy, but I'm not as impressed with the design or the execution, plus there's just more pieces to move around.

I'm prepared to pay the cost for a superior system. If once I start using it I find it less than satisfying, I will be sure to report my findings.

I will let the forum know in any case.

Happy to see someone with some common sense

 

[trimixdiver1]

Then someone is blowing smoke here! Whoever is playing games here will be exposed for what they are. Most of us here don't want this forum abused. I hope the truth shows itself soon.

 

[RufusBrewer]

My response at this point would be

"make this right or I will DESTROY YOU......... I spent $5k for your product, and it failed in NORMAL USE. I will join every home brewing forum on the planet and make sure EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT THIS.......... Is that what you want........ can you afford this?........ One pissed off customer can do an immense amount of damage, and I intend to do as much damage as possible if you blow me off".......

I'm a hard ass........ I've used this strategy several times and gotten satisfaction. No business can afford and angry customer on a rampage. Be that angry customer on a rampage........ or at least make them think you are. I've been in business for over 30 years, and my customers are my biggest asset. I've made mistakes.......but I make them right.

You have photos, and documentation..... Make it damn clear that you are going for the juggular!!



H.W.

Also a significant effort from others to make the company aware that many others know how they treated one of our own. You mess with a home brewer you mess with all home brewers.

I was not aware of this company before, now all I know is bad. I will let them know that.

 

[Owly055]

Happy to see someone with some common sense

It is completely unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to make this equipment with material that is indestructible......... The pressure and vacuum issues are KNOWN issues that apply to any jacketed fermenter. Making sure that the owner is educated as to this potential issue is obviously extremely important to protect against this sort of disaster. More important to protect the company and owner is installation of fail safe devices. This equipment is not being marketed to trained professionals.

A water inlet pressure regulator is a no brainer........ at $12.14 (Walmart) for an RV water pressure regulator, it's cheap insurance. The vacuum relief valve can be just as simple and cheap at a mere $8.75

For less than $21....... a one "time insurance payment, you can take out insurance to protect a $1600 fermenter........... Who wouldn't buy those options? Only an idiot!! But they are NOT even offered as options............ This is insurance Brewha should take out to prevent situations like this one......... and pass the $20 on to the customer.

H.W.
pressure regulator:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/29764332?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227022168209&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40838479712&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78652139792&veh=sem

Vacuum relief:
http://www.bigbrandwater.com/reliefvalve65.html?cmp=googleproducts&kw=reliefvalve65&gclid=CjwKEAjwnKCrBRCm1YuPrtWW0QMSJAC-5UYk7xGeabCGibZDhFGixpBhdZ38DEK8mRPsiEYmUtDoPRoCAoLw_wcB

 

[trimixdiver1]

I'm at the point to have proof that these claims are correct. Both sides. Any way to get a micrometer on the walls to determine how thick they are? Just doesn't seem that 16 gauge would be that easy to bang back into shape. Maybe 16mil but not 16g.

Anyway there is a lot of he said she said, but the she said is from a loyal customer and not the company. So on that fact, I'm swinging towards the OP for now.

 

[trimixdiver1]

It is completely unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to make this equipment with material that is indestructible......... The pressure and vacuum issues are KNOWN issues that apply to any jacketed fermenter. Making sure that the owner is educated as to this potential issue is obviously extremely important to protect against this sort of disaster. More important to protect the company and owner is installation of fail safe devices. This equipment is not being marketed to trained professionals.

A water inlet pressure regulator is a no brainer........ at $12.14 (Walmart) for an RV water pressure regulator, it's cheap insurance. The vacuum relief valve can be just as simple and cheap at a mere $8.75

For less than $21....... a one "time insurance payment, you can take out insurance to protect a $1600 fermenter........... Who wouldn't buy those options? Only an idiot!! But they are NOT even offered as options............ This is insurance Brewha should take out to prevent situations like this one......... and pass the $20 on to the customer.

H.W.
pressure regulator:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/29764332?...38479712&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78652139792&veh=sem

Vacuum relief:
http://www.bigbrandwater.com/relief...GibZDhFGixpBhdZ38DEK8mRPsiEYmUtDoPRoCAoLw_wcB

For the price, to absorb say $50 more and make it standard would only increase sales.

 

[Owly055]

I think it's time to turn this thread to a constructive one...... hence my previous post. It is not my desire to kill off Brewha...... at least not before I get one ;-) .......

Pissing matches over metal gauge are pretty pointless. There is one pissed off customer involved and one foolish company rep who allowed this to escalate into a damaging confrontation. The fact that the vast majority of customers are NOT having these problems makes it pretty clear that the unit in question was operated outside it's design parameters, rather than being defective or of fundamentally poor design.

The way forward from here is compromise and taking measures to insure that there is not a repeat of this situation. There are design limits on both pressure and vacuum........ or more accurately relative pressure. Ensuring that those limits are not exceeded is in everybody's best interest.

I would love to see this thread die out.......... Manufacturer and customer reach an accord on replacement, the one recognizing that he must make some inexpensive changes to hardware as well as documentation to prevent a repeat, the other recognizing that he did not sufficiently familiarize himself with what documentation was available.


H.W.

 

[cantrell00]

Only way that ever happens is if this thread continues to live on and further impact BrewHa.

Burn baby burn.