Facelift for my control panel

[augiedoggy]

Just a side bar, my 3bbl kettles arrived yesterday.. pretty stoked to get going on my electric panel for that.

 

[BrunDog]

Suhweeet!

 

[cod3ck]

Just a side bar, my 3bbl kettles arrived yesterday.. pretty stoked to get going on my electric panel for that.

...you must have a lot of friends [emoji482]

 

[storunner13]

It’s reaction from folks like those that encourages me to defy them I’ll contact Allen Gu, if anyone wants in PM me. Thanks again!

Pickles--I'd suggest that you request Allen Gu to make sure to package the units well. 3 out of 4 units I purchased had bent plugs when they delivered. They were just thrown in a box without any packaging, so the box was shredded when it arrived from China. I was able to bend the plugs back, but it was still a hassle to get them just-right so that they were smooth.

 

[augiedoggy]

...you must have a lot of friends [emoji482]

opening a nano brewery in town with a partner..

 

[augiedoggy]

Pickles--I'd suggest that you request Allen Gu to make sure to package the units well. 3 out of 4 units I purchased had bent plugs when they delivered. They were just thrown in a box without any packaging, so the box was shredded when it arrived from China. I was able to bend the plugs back, but it was still a hassle to get them just-right so that they were smooth.

good to know, im about to purchase again from him..

 

[Esmitee]

I know this thread is not a Q&A for you Augie, But I just reread this entire thread and learned even more from you.... and a few others. I have 1 question for you since I know you have done it a lot of times and, you are "NO Bull Crap" about what others do. So, Can I just extend my RTD pt 100 probes by just using Cat 5 wires in the sheathing that have solid wire. Meaning, Just use 3 of the total of 8 wires that are in the cable, and just leave the other ones I do not use in the sheathing ? I have like a 1000' roll of the stuff and it's the same gauge. I have already used it in my panel from the XLR jacks to the PID controllers.

OR, do I have to use 24 g Stranded wire? Thanks

 

[BrunDog]

I think it will work fine, but I personally believe that Ethernet cable (single strand) is not the highest quality for wiring automation. Use it if you have it but for those building from zero, I recommend sourcing 18 or 22 gauge cable for RTD wiring, minimize the number of interconnects, and solder all connections.

 

[Esmitee]

Hey BrunDog, I guess I really didn't ask, what I really meant to ask. Lol
So, what I should have asked is, I have RTD probes with about 6 feet of cable on them. They are to short to use as is, so I would like to make them at least 10, maybe 12 feet long. Instead of extending them, I really want to remove the existing cable and using the cat 5 wire, rewire them from the probe to the 10-12 feet length right to the male XLR Jack that plugs into the female XLR scokets on the bottom of my control panel.

I read, I guess in these forms, that the type of wire for the RTD probes, don't really matter as long as they are all the same type, gauge and lenght. I understand that the TC style probe need the proper TC wire.

That's why I posted this question here in Augie's thread. He defies the "Norm", doesn't follow the crowd, plows his on course, and also proves that "cost" has nothing to do with performance.

With that said, if the cat 5 will give the same results as the 24 gauge stranded "RTD" wire, I'll use it, if not, I'll go buy the proper type.
Thanks BD

 

[PapaFoxtrot]

I had trouble finding 22ga stranded wire locally and ordered this from Amazon.

 

[augiedoggy]

cat 5 cable will work fine. others here have already done this.. ethernet jacks and all. (I have a ton of it myself from work)
The wire 30GA? thats comes with these RTD's is pretty bad as far as strand count. (The cat 5 is much better) .. so much so the stainless braided cable is used on the really cheap crap to help prevent the wires from just breaking with a gentle tug.. This is why I find it so shady that auberins sells the cheapest stainless braided crap as an "upgrade"... The teflon cables are leaps and bounds better.

just be sure to solder the wires on and you will be ok with RTD's thermocouples are a different story so Ive read.

 

[Esmitee]

cat 5 cable will work fine. others here have already done this.. ethernet jacks and all. (I have a ton of it myself from work)
The wire 30GA? thats comes with these RTD's is pretty bad as far as strand count. (The cat 5 is much better) .. so much so the stainless braided cable is used on the really cheap crap to help prevent the wires from just breaking with a gentle tug.. This is why I find it so shady that auberins sells the cheapest stainless braided crap as an "upgrade"... The teflon cables are leaps and bounds better.

just be sure to solder the wires on and you will be ok with RTD's thermocouples are a different story so Ive read.

Thanks for you wizdom of the E builds Augie. I have a crapton of the cat 5, so I'm going to use it. Yea, I got 5 of those cheapy SS braided RTD's from ebay. Yes the stranded wires are really thin. So thin, I gave up on them. I cant even get a crimped spade on them, LOL
Good luck on your opening !

 

[BrunDog]

To reiterate... RTD cable connections should be soldered, not crimped. You need the lowest impedance impact possible.

 

[augiedoggy]

To reiterate... RTD cable connections should be soldered, not crimped. You need the lowest impedance impact possible.

I do agree soldering is best for this but many of these are shipping from sellers with them already crimped on... Perhaps this contributes to some of the accuracy complaints I've read about from some folks here? Ive never actually done a side by side comparison on this but look at it this way.

I have what equates to crimp connections on my SPI boards where the wiring comes in to be screwed down and at the panel plug connections as well as the probe disconnect at the other end with this type of contact vs soldered.
Plus most have it where the sensor is wired to the PID so perhaps it doesnt have all that much effect on real world performance depending on the crimped connection and whether its poorly done and doesnt tarnish/corrode...

I have had no accuracy issues myself with the inexpensive 3 pin aviation connectors and I would think I would see issues with those before crimped connections.

On an unrelated note.

I did add a 4th RTD sensor to my brucontrol panel as well as replaced my DC power supply with 2 more robust DIN power supplies on a noise filter to try to isolate and issue I am having with my rims RTD going haywire while my chiller compressor is running off the same circuit which I think is caused by some sort of ground loop or poor ground. This was also effecting my 1 wire temp probes. I have to test later today. I also plan to investigate my rims ground since theres technically teflon tape separating the rims element from the tube which is grounded I'm not sure if this is having an effect.

 

[TenaCJed]

Curious which MOSFET boards you are using. I have seen you mention I think in the tan pump thread that you run them at 20% or 25% power via the MOSFET. The reason I am asking which ones you are using as I am starting to do some testing of components now that my panel is built. I could not go lower than 30% on my MOSFET before the pump cut out. I tested slowly dropping and the same thing happened every time. I hooked up a meter on the output and noticed that it was constantly changing the output all over the place and it was not very consistent. It could jump from 2VDC to 12VDC to 5VDC, etc. This was around 50%, controlled via BruControl. If the MOSFET boards you are using are much more consistent on the output, then I will change mine out!

 

[BrunDog]

Note you will not get linear response nor full span control from DC motors using PWM. There is a point where the net power generated by the motor cannot even turn the motor/pump assembly. So there will be a natural cutoff somewhere around 25% power.

You can use calibrations in BruControl to simulate a 0-100% reading.

That said, using FET’s for PWM is fairly easy and inexpensive to implement. If you want a higher level of control, you need to use a proportional valve. If you want that control to have feedback, then you need to add a fluke meter as well. The proportional valves I use are fairly reasonable at around $130. The flowmeters I use is really cheap at around $15, though it’s not SS nor sexy!

 

[augiedoggy]

I used these...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Pcs-IRF520-MOS-FET-Driver-Module-for-Arduino-L7I3/172927136599?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

if I start the motor at 30% I can take it down to 20 and the flow rate drops on my flowmeter but it wont start up if I go from 0 to 20%

 

[TenaCJed]

BrunDog - I was not expecting it to be perfect, but I was surprised at how much it fluctuated. I also already have the flowmeter that you use.

augiedoggy - I don't think I can even start mine below 50% unfortunately, and definitely cannot get down to 20%.

 

[augiedoggy]

What pwm boards and power supply are you using? Also which pumps? All the td5 series pumps except the latest version that only avaliable through Bru pi have mppt controllers in them that will counteract the pwm control to a point.

 

[BrunDog]

@TenaCJed, are you using 24VDC or 12VDC? My understanding is some of these tan pumps do both. More power is more betta!

Also, I just noticed your comment above about measurement with a meter. You cannot effectively measure power on a PWM circuit unless you have a true RMS meter. Measuring with a DC function will not work as you technically do not have consistent voltage.

 

[TenaCJed]

For the MOSFET, I have WINGONEER 5Pcs IRF520 MOSFET Driver Module from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XHH1TQM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

For the pump, it is a 24VDC tan pump: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073QMWN9L/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

For 24VDC power I have Mean Well NES-350-24 24V 350 Watt UL Switching Power Supply 120 Volt : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KTJE3L4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And for 12VDC power I have uxcell Voltage Buck Converter Regulator DC 24V Step-Down to DC 12V 20A 240W Waterproof Power Transformer : https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ARRAWE4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I was using a cheap meter when measuring the output of the MOSFET.

I might try to swap out the MOSFET just to see if another one can provide a little bit more stable power at a lower % level.

 

[augiedoggy]

That is strange as your using the same MOSFETs and pump as me. There are different versions supposedly of the 24v tan pumps with some advertised as higher current but I've tried to buy the different ones and they all work the same for me.

 

[BrunDog]

Run the PWM at 100% and read the voltage into the motor. Should be ~23.3V or so.

 

[augiedoggy]

Unless of course you boost the output of your 24v power Sully for the voltage loss

 

[BrunDog]

Well, you are effectively reducing the output via the PWM, so increasing the input voltage serves to raise it again.

I would also make sure there is no inbound restriction to the pump. It needs to have full flow/pressure leading to its inlet.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well I'm not sure how much of a different it really makes but I have my 24v power supply set to output 24.4v my understanding of pwm is it's 24v on and off at varying speeds to pulse the motor to run at a matching speed but I could be understanding it wrong and I know the speed isn't going to exactly linear.

 

[BrunDog]

Think of PWM as DC, with "notches" taken out as you go from 100% down to 0%. At 100%, there are no notches and you have DC power (consistent voltage). As you drop down to 75%, 25% of the DC current is notched out, meaning the output is on 75% of the time and off 25% of the time. This cycle is very fast at ~1000 cycles per second (household current is 60 cycles per second, and the wave is sinusoidal). At 50%, its half and half, and you have a square wave, etc.

The motor does not follow these pulses, because the pulses are fast, but what it experiences is a net power reduction.

 

[augiedoggy]

That makes total sense

 

[TenaCJed]

Run the PWM at 100% and read the voltage into the motor. Should be ~23.3V or so.

Sorry for the delay in response, and also sorry for kind of hijacking augie's thread. I did check the voltage into the motor with a slightly better meter that claims True RMS, and it was reading around 23.4V at 100%.

I changed the MOSFET out, but have not had a chance to actually run the pump yet to do more testing. Also for the flow meter, do you put yours before or after RIMS tube?

 

[BrunDog]

Ok so full power is getting to the motor. Now read it at 75, 50, and 25% using that RMS function.

My FM is before the RIMs tube, but after the proportional valve.