EZ Water Calculator RA Question

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copper2hopper

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Should I be concerned about my RA being -135 after my plugged in recipe/salt adjustments for brewing a hoppy/bitter IPA with an SRM of about 12? Using Johon Palmers nomogaph I am trying to stay within the range of what that scale suggests for an SRM of 12....which is 20-30 RA.
 
Sorry I don't have any answer but this is a question of mine too. Would like to see what others say.
 
The color to RA ratio has it's flaws, what are your exact numbers of starting water and added salts? What exactly are the numbers you are trying to get?

EDIT: When you did your calculations did you account for the concentration that would occur when the volume was reduced by boiling? i.e. C1V1=C2V2. If you stated with 6 gallons of 80 ppm Na, after boiling you would have 6(80)= 5(x), or 96 ppm Na.
 
What are its issues?

It doesn't work. There are far, far more accurate tools available, like the EZ Water Calculator you mentioned above, amongst others.

The nomograph was better than nothing at all, in its time, but it's a crude instrument which leads you astray nearly as often as it gets you in the right ballpark. I can't think of a single reason to recommend its use now.
 
RA is just a concept, relevant only in a mash, which indicates the 'effective' alkalinity after accounting for the Ca/Mg/Phosphate reactions supplying protons when the water and malt are mixed.

A negative value simply indicates you would overcome the alkalinity of the water, although not necessarily the alkalinity of the malt itself. At 0 alkalinity, a base-malt only mash will have a pH of around 5.6-5.8. Still too high obviously and more acid will be needed. If there is sufficient Ca and/or Mg present, the pH would be slightly lower by say, 0.05-0.10. This is not to say you should add hardness to control pH, it's just a small side effect. We use acid to lower pH.


I can't believe that nomograph is still floating around. Take 2 beers, both stouts at SRM = 35.

Stout 1 is 90% base and 10% highly roasted dark malt.
Stout 2 is 70% base with a heavy dose of less-dark crystal and roast making up the balance.

Stout 1 will probably need acid, while stout 2 will likely need a alkalinity ADDED!

The color:acidity correlation is very loose general trend. It certainly shouldn't be used for mash math.
 
GP: thank you for explaining, I just couldn't find the words today... IIRC, the best tasting batch of my Brown Porter started with 8 or 9 gallons of home filtered water (PUR) brought to a hard boil and then cooled overnight. When I used the water the next morning, I left the precipitate in the bottom of the pot and then added my calculated salts/etc to my mash water. No, I don't know what my resulting water was after the overnight cooling, but I will say this method works for me and my water when making my Brown Porter. I used EZ Water then and still use EZ Water now.
 
RA is just a concept, relevant only in a mash, which indicates the 'effective' alkalinity after accounting for the Ca/Mg/Phosphate reactions supplying protons when the water and malt are mixed.

A negative value simply indicates you would overcome the alkalinity of the water, although not necessarily the alkalinity of the malt itself. At 0 alkalinity, a base-malt only mash will have a pH of around 5.6-5.8. Still too high obviously and more acid will be needed. If there is sufficient Ca and/or Mg present, the pH would be slightly lower by say, 0.05-0.10. This is not to say you should add hardness to control pH, it's just a small side effect. We use acid to lower pH.


I can't believe that nomograph is still floating around. Take 2 beers, both stouts at SRM = 35.

Stout 1 is 90% base and 10% highly roasted dark malt.
Stout 2 is 70% base with a heavy dose of less-dark crystal and roast making up the balance.

Stout 1 will probably need acid, while stout 2 will likely need a alkalinity ADDED!

The color:acidity correlation is very loose general trend. It certainly shouldn't be used for mash math.

Wow, I'm surprised it is this wishy washy. Thank you for the excellent explanation.
 
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1434413991.190509.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1434414022.145153.jpg
Great info so far guys. Thank you so much. As far as my numbers go please refer to my pics (sorry...lazy....didn't wanna spell it out via this post from my iPhone and sorry...had to split it into two in order to get good zoom/make it fit). This is my adjusted water recipe made after my first post where I said my RA was -135. As seen in this one you can see my new RA is predicted at 24 and pH of 5.78 at room temp which would match the Nomograph and my SRM for the recipe of about 5-6. My OP was accounting for if I added 8oz of Acidulated Malt which pegged the RA at -135 with a pH of 5.6 at room temp (adjusted to mash temp would put it at 5.3....follow up question to this coming later).

All in all I'm gathering from your posts so far that I guess I shouldn't worry about the huge negative RA value so long as my pH is on point and should probably go with the recipe added with the Acidulated Malt. I didn't realize that Nomograph is so outdated but it falls in line with information I found here

http://www.homebrewing.com/articles/water-chemistry.php

Where it states.... " The relationship between malt color and residual alkalinity is complicated, but in practice I find that targeting a general RA based on the wort's basic color (i.e. -20 for yellow, 20 for gold, 60 for amber, 100 for brown, and 150+ for black) is all that's needed to reliably reach a target mash pH range"

As far as accounting for that boil off...I did not...never thought of doing so thinking maybe the calculator already had a generalization calculation for that...does anyone else really pay attention to that though?

I'm pretty happy with my ppm numbers at the bottom being where they fall within the recommended ranges suggested (some being on the low end. Some being in the middle and some of course being on the high end). And I like my chloride to sulfate ratio based on what I'm brewing here being a hoppy APA.

My follow up question to this room temp to mash temp pH is (if I can put into words that make sense of it rolling around in my "makes sense to me" head here)...DO I want my pH level at room temp to be 5.2 or mash temp to be 5.2. Based on the calc it gives you the estimated room temp. All I ever see and hear is "you want you're pH to be 5.2....5.2 all they way!" Well...now looking at and becoming familiar with this calculator...what are people referring to??? Mash temp or room temp pH??? I contacted precision labs (pH test strip company) today on the phone and also read their blogs on their website in reference to their Beer pH 4662 test strips that I have. They said on the phone and as well on the website that their test strips aren't meant for testing at the mash temp range and should be used on a sample at room temp BUT if you do...the adjustment rate is 0.35

"Page 202 of the book, New Brewing Lager Beer states that it’s important to “be aware that density and pH readings may vary with temperature, so the hotter the mash… the lower the density and pH appear to be.”

Page 75 of the book, Standards of Brewing reminds us that “pH changes with temperature, so [mash] at 149°F will have a pH about .35 lower than that measured at 68°F.”

Use the correction factor of .35 when measuring mash or wort.

https://preclaboratories.com/testing-adjusting-mash-ph/

So again though....I was still confused do I want my room temp mash pH to be 5.2 or mash temp pH to be 5.2. Is this calculator assuming everyone is taking samples at mash temp ranges that are going to register that 0.35 points lower which is why it notes "estimated room temp mash pH"? Because if I want to adjust my EZ calculator to dial in at 5.2 room temp then according to this article and if I take a sample at mash temp then that reading should be an ideal 4.85ish. So which is it???

Ugh...DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? Sorry.
 
I think I found my answer through some other threads. I do in fact want my room temp ph to be in the 5.4-5.6 range. Can someone please back this up as well and let me know??
 
I think I found my answer through some other threads. I do in fact want my room temp ph to be in the 5.4-5.6 range. Can someone please back this up as well and let me know??

I can't see the pictures as I reply, but this is a stout, correct?

If so, a mash pH of 5.5-5.6 (at room temperature) would be perfect. How are your other numbers? I wouldn't go over about 90 ppm of sulfate (probably less) with a stout.
 
Thanks yooper. It's not a stout. It's a heavily Amarillo hopped hoppy APA from a new and super awesome brewery called Pipeworks out of Chicago. I'm trying to clone their recipe of "Da Fuzz" look them up and check it out. I also posted my upcoming clone attempt on here too if u wanna see the recipe.
 
Thanks yooper. It's not a stout. It's a heavily Amarillo hopped hoppy APA from a new and super awesome brewery called Pipeworks out of Chicago. I'm trying to clone their recipe of "Da Fuzz" look them up and check it out. I also posted my upcoming clone attempt on here too if u wanna see the recipe.

Makes sense- sorry about that! I can't see the attachments once I hit "reply" and I had stout on the brain from the example given above.

I like my IPAs/IRAs (India red ales) mashed at a pH 5.3 or so- that is really a nice place to be to make the hops pop and the beer taste clean.

I tend to go with a lesser sulfate level than some of the profiles others use in many pale ales. I like 150-175 ppm of sulfate as a rule, and often just go with 175 ppm in a recipe I haven't tried before. Sulfate enhances a dry feeling in the beer, and that can be nice in pale ales and IPAs, but I only have one recipe that I like at over 200 ppm of sulfate.

I do not like EZ calculator. It's, well, easy, but I haven't ever have it come within .3 of my actual pH. I like Brewer's Friend and Bru'n water better for predicting mash pH. (For a while, the anal side of me used all three before a brewday, and measured mash pH and compared. After about 6 brewdays, I saw that EZ was never even close, while the other two were. I'm down to Bru'nwater now only).
 
Thanks so much Yooper great info. Is EZ calculator always .3 lower or higher for you in your experience with it and can u provide an example? Just wanna know so I can adjust appropriately and have it make sense.
 
Thanks so much Yooper great info. Is EZ calculator always .3 lower or higher for you in your experience with it and can u provide an example? Just wanna know so I can adjust appropriately and have it make sense.

No, not always. That was way I had trouble using it. Often it was .3 high in estimating- but not every time.

You could try Brewer's Friend and see if that one comes up with a similar result, but Bru'nwater is generally my favorite although it has a learning curve.
 

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