EZ Water Calculator 3.0

[tld6008]

Yes. I understood that to be the question. My experience has been that it hasn't been too late. That said, I don't wait 20-25 minutes before measuring pH. Way back when I first started doing water adjustments/measuring pH (more than 10 years ago), I had similar concerns and measured pH ~5 minutes after mashing in with grains/salts, then measured again 60-90 mins later and didn't notice much difference. So today I mash in with grains/salts, measure pH after stirring for a few mins, and add acid (as required). It's always worked for me and produced fantastic beers.

Kal

I am just getting used to using my ph meter and my process ended up taking several minutes from drawing sample, cooling it, taking reading etc. So the 15 min initial check gave results at the 20+ minute mark. If 5 min into the mash will be enough I will start with that and have plenty of time to react. I also had a problem not knowing how much acid to add to achieve the target ph after the first reading. As I originally stated the estimated amounts from various calculators ranged from 1.5 to 5+ ml. I ended up using with 4.5ml and was still a little high. I thought I had read somewhere that 1 ml of lactic would lower the ph by a given amount but that must depend on the makeup the individual mash, although as I look over my notes each 1 ml addition resulted in a .1 drop in ph. Had I realized that would be the reaction I could have added 3 ml after the first check and then acted like I knew what I was doing.

 

[ajdelange]

I must be missing something,

Don't think so.

how do you propose to have the ph properly adjusted upon dough in unless through trial and error you know exactly what additions to make before hand?

By trial and error! It's not as bad as it sounds. The trials are often guided by the use of calculations involving the acid/base properties of the grains and the carbonic acid system in the water. 'Trials' also include previous batches of the same beer. "I brewed this beer 3 months ago using 2% sauermalz and got pH 5.55. I'd really like to be closer to 5.5 so I'll try 3% sauermalz this time". After enough experience with a particular beer you just know how much acid to add and would only do any calculations or tests if you knew you were using a base malt with DI pH and buffering capacity appreciably different from the one you typically use.

I am assuming dough in is the initial mixing of grain and water.

Yes.

 

[ajdelange]

I am just getting used to using my ph meter and my process ended up taking several minutes from drawing sample, cooling it, taking reading etc. So the 15 min initial check gave results at the 20+ minute mark. If 5 min into the mash will be enough I will start with that and have plenty of time to react.

It isn't. Especially when liquid acid is used the early pH readings are likely to be dramatically low with respect to where they start to settle after 20 minutes or so. Many a brewer has spent a miserable afternoon chasing pH by trying to adjust for an out or range early pH reading.

I also had a problem not knowing how much acid to add to achieve the target ph after the first reading. As I originally stated the estimated amounts from various calculators ranged from 1.5 to 5+ ml. I ended up using with 4.5ml and was still a little high. I thought I had read somewhere that 1 ml of lactic would lower the ph by a given amount but that must depend on the makeup the individual mash,

Yes, it does depend on the individual mash. As a rough rule of thumb you could use 40 mEq of acid (or alkalinity if pH is too low) for each 0.1 desired pH change for each kg of malt. Note that it depends only a little on the water because even though its alkalinity be high originally by the time you are near mash pH most of the alkalinity has been knocked out.

 

[tld6008]

It isn't. Especially when liquid acid is used the early pH readings are likely to be dramatically low with respect to where they start to settle after 20 minutes or so. Many a brewer has spent a miserable afternoon chasing pH by trying to adjust for an out or range early pH reading.

Yes, it does depend on the individual mash. As a rough rule of thumb you could use 40 mEq of acid (or alkalinity if pH is too low) for each 0.1 desired pH change for each kg of malt. Note that it depends only a little on the water because even though its alkalinity be high originally by the time you are near mash pH most of the alkalinity has been knocked out.

The weary ph chasing brewer now opens the can of worms and asks what is an mEq or how can 40mEq be converted to ml of lactic acid? I did search on google but don't understand the definitions.

 

[ajdelange]

A mEq (milliequivalent) is, in this context, the unit we use to measure protons. One mEq means 6.02E20 of them. It's obviously a lot easier to say that you need 1.5 mEq of acid (really meaning that you need that many protons) than to say that you need 9.03E20 protons.

We're simplifying things here greatly but that's the whole idea. There are no protons floating around in your mash but there are hydrogen ions. A hydrogen ion is a cluster of water molecules with single positive charge meaning that an acid has transferred one of its protons to a cluster of water molecules. The actual formula for a hydrogen ion is H(2n+1)On+ with n being some relatively modest integer. It's often written H3O+ and even more frequently H+ which represents a hydrogen atom from which the electron has been removed leaving a proton.

We don't want to be bothered with all this. What we are really interested in is how protons move about and that we can predict pH by keeping track of them. In measuring alkalinity the analyst adds acid to your water until he has 'neutralized' all the bicarbonate (HCO3-) and hydroxyl (OH-) ions. Neutralize here does not mean what you have been taught in your freshman chemistry course but rather neutralize in the broader sense that its ability to prevent the reduction of pH has been neutralized. This happens when enough acid (protons have been added) to convert all the bicarbonate to CO2 gas and all the hydroxyl to water. This is deemed to be the case when the pH of the sample has been reduced to 4.5. The adds 0.1 N acid to 0.1 L of your water. Each mL of 0.1 N acid contains 0.1 mEq protons. Thus the number of mL he uses is simply the number of mEq he has added. Because (for convenience) he uses 100 mL samples and 0.1 N acid the number of mL is numerically equal to the mEq of acid he would have used to treat 1 L of sample. In the US the number of mL is multiplies by 50 and reported as 'alkalinity, ppm as CaCO3'. When you mash you need to neutralize bicarbonate and hydroxyl just as the analyst did. So you take his reported alkalinity and divide by 50 to get mEq/L. Multiply that by the number of liters of water you intend to use to get the total number of mEq you need to 'neutralize' that volume of water.

How much acid does that take? Divide the total required mEq required by the number of mEq provided by each mL of the acid i.e. by its normality. Each mL of 88% lactic acid contains about 10.8 mEq i.e. it is 10.8 N.

Example: You plan to brew using 20L of water with reported alkalinity of 75 ppm as CaCO3.
1)Get alkalinity in mEq/L: 75/50 = 1.5
2)Multiply by volume to be treated: 20*1.5 = 30 mEq
3)Divide by strength of acid to be used (10.8 N): 30/10.8 = 2.8 mL

In fact you only need 90% of this because while the analyst went to pH 4.5 in determining the alkalinity number you will go to mash pH around 5.5 and will, consequently, need a bit less acid than he did.

 

[tld6008]

Example: You plan to brew using 20L of water with reported alkalinity of 75 ppm as CaCO3.
1)Get alkalinity in mEq/L: 75/50 = 1.5
2)Multiply by volume to be treated: 20*1.5 = 30 mEq
3)Divide by strength of acid to be used (10.8 N): 30/10.8 = 2.8 mL

In fact you only need 90% of this because while the analyst went to pH 4.5 in determining the alkalinity number you will go to mash pH around 5.5 and will, consequently, need a bit less acid than he did.[/QUOTE]


Thanks I really appreciate your effort to explain this but it seems the solution to my current issue is to just ask easier questions.

Cheers

 

[ajdelange]

It looks as if you are just starting out with respect to mash pH, water treatment etc. Thus many of the terms that we bandy about here and the science and techniques we discuss will be unfamiliar to you. While you may, at this point, have some difficulty in understanding he answers to your questions the questions themselves are by no means difficult questions. Once you get up to speed a bit you should find the answers easier to digest.

 

[Joon1975]

Im starting to mess around with water chemistry. I only brew with RO water since my water is very hard and not drinkable. Can I use the calculator using RO water? Should I just leave the water profile at zero?

 

[Joon1975]

I’m assuming RO water doesn’t contain any minerals.

 

[kal]

Im starting to mess around with water chemistry. I only brew with RO water since my water is very hard and not drinkable. Can I use the calculator using RO water? Should I just leave the water profile at zero?

Yup. While not all RO water is all zeros, that's generally the assumption you should make. If you're looking for a step by step guide to using EZ Water, check out the one I wrote here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment

Good luck!

Kal

 

[Joon1975]

Thank you! Will read the article, very excited about making beer better!

 

[tld6008]

Yup. While not all RO water is all zeros, that's generally the assumption you should make. If you're looking for a step by step guide to using EZ Water, check out the one I wrote here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment

Good luck!

Kal

I just read through your water-adjustment article, which was very good, and was surprised to read your recommendations on taking ph readings at or near mash temperatures. I have been using a meter for a while now and although it has temp. correction I have always been lead to believe that the readings should be taken at the same temp. as when the meter was calibrated. To make sure I wasn't mistaken I searched on the subject and did see other authors suggesting to take the readings at mash temp., although this is not apparently good for the meter. Most of the recipes I brew specify mash ph levels but do not discuss what temp. they were read at.

 

[Big Monk]

I just read through your water-adjustment article, which was very good, and was surprised to read your recommendations on taking ph readings at or near mash temperatures. I have been using a meter for a while now and although it has temp. correction I have always been lead to believe that the readings should be taken at the same temp. as when the meter was calibrated. To make sure I wasn't mistaken I searched on the subject and did see other authors suggesting to take the readings at mash temp., although this is not apparently good for the meter. Most of the recipes I brew specify mash ph levels but do not discuss what temp. they were read at.

Standards dictate taking readings at 77F.

You can certainly take measurements at mash temp but:

a.) You'll will accelerate the failure of the equipment (it's not rated or designed for mash readings at mash temps);

b.) You have to invoke equations for correcting the reading based on the temperature.

 

[kal]

Standards dictate taking readings at 77F.

You can certainly take measurements at mash temp but:

a.) You'll will accelerate the failure of the equipment (it's not rated or designed for mash readings at mash temps);

b.) You have to invoke equations for correcting the reading based on the temperature.

Correct! My guide covers all this in STEP 5 (BREW DAY) here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/water-adjustment?page=7

I describe how the target pH changes if you measure at mash temp.

The electrode will not last as long either. That is true. That said, I'm 10 years in now of brewing 10-15 times/year on my electrode and it's just starting to get a bit flaky. If I can get 100-150 batches out of an electrode without having to cool down the sample that works for me. YMMV.

Kal

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your guide says that your personal pH meter is ATC compensated up to 140 degrees F., so it needs no mathematical correction for its pH output up to that temperature. I don't believe that is a correct interpretation of what ATC is doing.

Alll that ATC assures is that the pH reading will be correct.

So if it reads 5.2 pH at 140 degrees F., and 5.4 pH at 77 degrees F. for the same sample, you can rest assured (thanks to ATC) that both pH readings are factually correct.

 

[Joon1975]

Plan on brewing a Golden ale this weekend. How does this water profile look? I’m using RO water. I hope is readable.

 

[kal]

Your guide says that your personal pH meter is ATC compensated up to 140 degrees F., so it needs no mathematical correction for its pH output up to that temperature. I don't believe that is a correct interpretation of what ATC is doing.

Alll that ATC assures is that the pH reading will be correct.

So if it reads 5.2 pH at 140 degrees F., and 5.4 pH at 77 degrees F. for the same sample, you can rest assured (thanks to ATC) that both pH readings are factually correct.

Exactly correct. I believe you may be misreading my guide. Here's a quote from my guide that agrees with you:

pH changes with temperature, so if the sample has been cooled to room temperature, a pH of 5.4 to 5.6 is the target range instead of 5.2 to 5.4. Don't confuse the inclusion of automatic temperature compensation (ATC) in the pH meter to mean that the target range will always be 5.2 to 5.4 regardless of temperature, as that would be incorrect. ATC only compensates for the change in the electrical response of the pH meter probe with temperature. It does not compensate for the chemical/energy change in the water that naturally makes a hotter mash more acidic (lower pH). The pH target range will therefore always depend on the temperature of the sample: 5.2 to 5.4 when measured at mash temperature, or 5.4 to 5.6 when measured at room temperature.

Kal

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe you may be misreading my guide. Correction is required higher temps as pH varies with temp. Here's a quote from my guide that agrees with you:

Kal

Oops, I guess I just didn't read enough of it. Sorry about that!!! The information is good for others to know, as many believe that thanks to ATC, a pH of 5.4 at 154 degrees will also be a pH of 5.4 at room temperature, and this is not the case.

 

[kal]

Oops, I guess I just didn't read enough of it. Sorry about that!!! The information is good for others to know, as many believe that thanks to ATC, a pH of 5.4 at 154 degrees will also be a pH of 5.4 at room temperature, and this is not the case.

Yup. It's a common misconception or misunderstanding so that why I included it. I'll have to re-read it however as obviously it's not clear!

Kal

 

[kal]

Ok, so I moved a bit around and also added a blurb about the probe electrode lasting longer if you cool the sample first. Hopefully this is clearer:

Once the grains and mash salts are well mixed, take a pH reading by placing the probe tip of the ph meter directly in the mash. The ph meter we recommend has automatic temperature compensation (ATC) up to 140F so we do not worry about cooling down a sample as any errors introduced will be minimal as we usually measure the mash pH when the temperature is just slightly above 140F. While the probe electrode will last longer if the sample is first cooled to room temperature, ours (so far) has last 10 years when brewing once or twice a month, so we've never bothered cooling down a sample as it's much quicker. Feel free to cool a sample to room temperature if you prefer.

For optimal starch to sugar conversion we want the pH to be around 5.2 to 5.4, but only when measured in the mash temperature range of somewhere around 145-165F. pH changes with temperature, so if the sample has been cooled to room temperature, a pH of 5.4 to 5.6 is the target range instead of 5.2 to 5.4. Don't confuse the inclusion of automatic temperature compensation (ATC) in the ph meter to mean that the target range will always be 5.2 to 5.4 regardless of temperature, as that would be incorrect. ATC only compensates for the change in the electrical response of the pH meter probe with temperature. It does not compensate for the chemical/energy change in the water that naturally makes a hotter mash more acidic (lower pH). The pH target range will therefore always depend on the temperature of the sample: 5.2 to 5.4 when measured at mash temperature, or 5.4 to 5.6 when measured at room temperature.

Cheers!

Kal

 

[tld6008]

So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???

 

[tld6008]

Plan on brewing a Golden ale this weekend. How does this water profile look? I’m using RO water. I hope is readable.



View attachment 610904

Looks good to me, I always use a couple calculators just to see the difference.... which there always is.

 

[kal]

So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???

It's what the recipe author intended for you to use. The problem is most recipes don't mention, so you have no way of knowing if they meant for that pH to be at room temp, or at mash temp.

Kal

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@kal, are you the developer of EZ Water?

 

[kal]

@kal, are you the developer of EZ Water?

Nope!

It was developed by forum member -TH- : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/members/th.26617/
(The guy at the start of this thread)

It's now owned however by culturedmedia.com (who also seem own homebrewtalk.com, brewersfriend.com, etc).

Kal

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

So the mash ph I am looking for per a specific recipe should be the one taken at the mash temperature or correct to that temperature???

I'd like to think they sampled mash pH at room temperature in order to extend the life of their pH meter. At least that's what I do. Spending $60 every other year on replacement electrodes is expensive enough as it is when sampling at room temperature.

 

[KLMtheReal]

Thanks for this great spreadsheet! I just started looking into water chemistry in order to fight that slight grainy/astrigent flavor I get in my beers, even though I've used different malts from different LHBSs and after brewing different styles of beers. In dark beers I don't get this flavor so I assume it has to do with my mash ph/oversparging because of biab(?). In any case, my CaCO3 is 136 and using phosphoric acid 80% in light colored beers to tremendous amounts, like a whole tablespoon in a 5 gal batch, and also adding CaCl because my water is low in these minerals I still get that flavor, maybe even accentuated. Since I got my water report, I switched to acid malt so I can calculate it easier with EZ, and recently got my hands on some epsom salts since my water has a serious deficiency. My standard practice is adding all my water beforehand, meaning grain water, sparge, and also compensating with boiloff water and water for trub loss. I always end up with 5 gals of beer when bottling. Could that he the culprit? Should I split my water additions or that's the standard way of biab brewing? I should add that I haven't tried yet adding acid malt and epsom, this week's brew is going to be my first try using EZ at all. Thanks and sorry for the long post

 

[kal]

I just started looking into water chemistry in order to fight that slight grainy/astrigent flavor I get in my beers... my CaCO3 is 136 and using phosphoric acid 80% in light colored beers to tremendous amounts...

High amount of acid can be perceived as astringent. Have you tried without? Have you ever measured with pH meter? (Spreadsheet estimators are just that: Only estimators).

Kal

 

[KLMtheReal]

High amount of acid can be perceived as astringent. Have you tried without? Have you ever measured with pH meter? (Spreadsheet estimators are just that: Only estimators).

Kal

Yes, I've tried with or without acid or salt additions and I still get that grainy flavour. The guy at my LHBS tried some of my beers and asked about my boil, of it's vigorous enough and whatnot (he percieved it as DMS). The boil is extremely vigorous (I'm using propane) and I always boil 90'+. The other guys to the shop hinted I might taste "the real barley grain" since I moved from kits to all grain.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

https://learn.kegerator.com/off-flavors-in-beer/

#7. Does this fit?