EZ Water Calculator 3.0

[atreid]

Tried to enter the same parameters in 3.0.1 and 3.0.2....

New 3.0.2 : Calculated mash pH = 5.50
Old 3.0.1 : Calculated mash pH = 5.30

Ouch! What to make of this...?

 

[ajdelange]

EZ, as is the case with all the spreadsheets and calculators, is based on a model. The nice thing about a model is that it can be easily changed as knowledge/experience increases. What you can make of this is that the author of the spreadsheet has new information that has lead him to change the model such that it more accurately reflects the new information. Whether that information better reflects your situation or not is a separate question. Modeling may be based on science but it is really an art.

 

[Wingfan13]

I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

 

[afr0byte]

I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).

 

[afr0byte]

I am new to using this ezwater calculator so be easy on me but I have a few questions.

My water has the following profile

Calcium 38
Magnesium 23
Sodium 28
Chloride 46
SO4-S 33
HCO3 186

Grain is -

9.5 lbs Pilsner
2.5 Munich
2.5 Vienna
.5 Caramel 60

I have 8 grams of Gypsum at mash and 6.6grams at Sparge (which is my second question. Just to be sure I am adding both of these, correct ? 8 at mash and 6.6 at sparge)

I am having trouble getting my Ph down under 5.67 but everything is within Palmers ranges on the bottom.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).

 

[Wingfan13]

You need to add acid (usually lactic or phosphoric). You have quite a bit of alkalinity (your HCO3 number), which prevents the pH from dropping far enough. Acid will combat that alkalinity. However, you probably want to dilute your water with distilled or RO, though, so you don't have to add as much acid (which you might start tasting if you add too much in an attempt to get your pH down).

Thanks. I don't suppose there is an easy calculation for how to dilute ?

 

[ResumeMan]

Dilution calculation is very straightforward. If you are using RO water to dilute, you probably won't go too far wrong if you just assume there's nothing in it. In that case, the change in concentration is strictly proportional. So if you dilute 50-50, you simply divide all your concentrations in half. If you diltue 3-to-1 RO water to your water, you divide all the concentrations by four (three-quarters of the water will be nothing, one quarter will be your water).

 

[lud]

I believe that there's a cell within that spreadsheet for RO dilutions.

 

[Wingfan13]

I believe that there's a cell within that spreadsheet for RO dilutions.

I see that now. Thanks

 

[Wingfan13]

OK, so now I entered a 50% dilution using RO. I now am at 5 grams Gypsum and 3ml of lactic acid. Do I do 3ml in mash AND 3ml in the sparge of lactic acid ?

The resulting water profile is -


Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
83 12 14 23 173 0.13
83 12 14 23 173 0.13
50 - 150 10 - 30 0 - 150 0 - 250 50 - 350 Below .77, May e nhance bitterness

I appreciate the help.

 

[lud]

The way I've been handling it is this...and please someone correct me...
I save any lactic acid additions for the mash after checking ph. And then only about .5cc or 1cc at a time, rechecking ph after 10-15 mins. I do a constant recirc mash.
I treat my entire water volume (mash/sparge waters) with any salts/etc before I do anything, this includes campden tabs for chloramine. Then I pump mash water to the mlt, and sparge water to the hlt.

 

[Wingfan13]

The way I've been handling it is this...and please someone correct me...
I save any lactic acid additions for the mash after checking ph. And then only about .5cc or 1cc at a time, rechecking ph after 10-15 mins. I do a constant recirc mash.
I treat my entire water volume (mash/sparge waters) with any salts/etc before I do anything, this includes campden tabs for chloramine. Then I pump mash water to the mlt, and sparge water to the hlt.

That would be good for my setup when I get an HLT (next week) but I am just using a small pot to heat up mash water and then again for the sparge water so the full water amount isnt sitting there so I can treat the entire thing.

 

[lud]

Isn't there a check box for treating mash and sparge water separately?

 

[Wingfan13]

Isn't there a check box for treating mash and sparge water separately?

There is but not for the acid. I am just not sure if I am supposed to add a total of 3ml or 3ml to each.

 

[duboman]

So I am beginning to play with water profiles and using this spreadsheet, I have entered some various recipes to see where I have been in the past.

My water PH is currently 7.2-8 and have received all other values from my water dept with a general range of +/- 2-4 ppm.

When I have entered the few recipes my estimated room temp mash ph is listed at around 5.68. The resulting water profile falls within all ranges except for Calcium which comes in at 37 and the sulfate that comes in at 26, both being below recommended levels.

My question is are these differences large enough to warrant having to make adjustments, obviously with a +/- variable of 2-4ppm these numbers may either be spot on or much higher for the desired PH.

Appreciate any input and if changes should be made, what should I worry about adding.

 

[lud]

There is but not for the acid. I am just not sure if I am supposed to add a total of 3ml or 3ml to each.

Just the mash, and only if warranted by a ph check, and a little at a time.

 

[ResumeMan]

I believe that there's a cell within that spreadsheet for RO dilutions.

That's even easier

 

[ResumeMan]

So I am beginning to play with water profiles and using this spreadsheet, I have entered some various recipes to see where I have been in the past.

My water PH is currently 7.2-8 and have received all other values from my water dept with a general range of +/- 2-4 ppm.

When I have entered the few recipes my estimated room temp mash ph is listed at around 5.68. The resulting water profile falls within all ranges except for Calcium which comes in at 37 and the sulfate that comes in at 26, both being below recommended levels.

My question is are these differences large enough to warrant having to make adjustments, obviously with a +/- variable of 2-4ppm these numbers may either be spot on or much higher for the desired PH.

Appreciate any input and if changes should be made, what should I worry about adding.

Well your predicted mash pH is a little on the high side anyway, so you should consider adding some CaCl2 (for non hop-focused beers) or CaSO4 (for hoppy beers). That will both get your mash pH down and boost your calcium.

My understanding is that, unless you want the hops flavor impact imparted by sulfate, you really don't want any in your beer at all, so don't worry about being on the low side of that range, unless you want the flavor emphasis that the sulfate provides.

 

[duboman]

Well your predicted mash pH is a little on the high side anyway, so you should consider adding some CaCl2 (for non hop-focused beers) or CaSO4 (for hoppy beers). That will both get your mash pH down and boost your calcium.

My understanding is that, unless you want the hops flavor impact imparted by sulfate, you really don't want any in your beer at all, so don't worry about being on the low side of that range, unless you want the flavor emphasis that the sulfate provides.

So then depending on the style I can play with amounts of either to manipulate the numbers to where I want to be?

 

[afr0byte]

The way I've been handling it is this...and please someone correct me...
I save any lactic acid additions for the mash after checking ph. And then only about .5cc or 1cc at a time, rechecking ph after 10-15 mins. I do a constant recirc mash.
I treat my entire water volume (mash/sparge waters) with any salts/etc before I do anything, this includes campden tabs for chloramine. Then I pump mash water to the mlt, and sparge water to the hlt.

Ideally you'd want to have added all of the necessary acid before you mash-in, before any conversion happens. Also, are you using your pH meter directly in the mash? How are you testing your pH after these .5 to 1cc additions?

 

[lud]

I always hold back on the lactic acid because sometimes I haven't needed all the amount that the spreadsheet has called for.

 

[lud]

I bring a sample to room temp.

 

[GUB]

Hi everyone, long time lurker to this ez water post, first time posting.

I was using EZ water 2.0 and found it was generally pretty good, however, as I didn't have a pH meter at the time I was assuming it was all ok (beers were coing out tasty!). I've have moved to EZ 3.0 and found that now I can measure pH, like others, it is over shooting my pH. It is a fairly consistent over shoot considering I am always brewing pale style beers (i have super soft water) and only typically using four base malts (a US 2-row and Euro MO, pale wheat and a Pils) with minimal dark/special malts. What I want to do is dial in the base pHs so that the pH I get from EZ3.0 is closer to what I am experiencing.

I have access to a lab with a constant hot water bath and pH meter amongst other things and what I am thinking of doing is creating a mini mash in the lab of small amounts (100g) of my base malts in my own water to see what sort of numbers I come up with. My problem is I have no mill, I get my grains crushed at the shop the day before brewing. So what I want to know if anyone can help is that is the quality of the crush going to effect the pH on my mini samples. The shop wont crush such a small amount so I will do it with a rolling pin of something similar. It might be too fine or too rough, who knows...but will it throw my reading off?

Thanks!

 

[afr0byte]

Hi everyone, long time lurker to this ez water post, first time posting.

I was using EZ water 2.0 and found it was generally pretty good, however, as I didn't have a pH meter at the time I was assuming it was all ok (beers were coing out tasty!). I've have moved to EZ 3.0 and found that now I can measure pH, like others, it is over shooting my pH. It is a fairly consistent over shoot considering I am always brewing pale style beers (i have super soft water) and only typically using four base malts (a US 2-row and Euro MO, pale wheat and a Pils) with minimal dark/special malts. What I want to do is dial in the base pHs so that the pH I get from EZ3.0 is closer to what I am experiencing.

I have access to a lab with a constant hot water bath and pH meter amongst other things and what I am thinking of doing is creating a mini mash in the lab of small amounts (100g) of my base malts in my own water to see what sort of numbers I come up with. My problem is I have no mill, I get my grains crushed at the shop the day before brewing. So what I want to know if anyone can help is that is the quality of the crush going to effect the pH on my mini samples. The shop wont crush such a small amount so I will do it with a rolling pin of something similar. It might be too fine or too rough, who knows...but will it throw my reading off?

Thanks!

You're not measuring at a single infusion mash temperature, are you (you should measure at room temp)? I assume you're using a calibrated meter, and not strips, right? As far as the crush, I can't think of a reason why the crush would affect the pH.

 

[GUB]

I am pretty happy with the techniques I am using - when I first started I was measuring at all sorts of temps but now I do as has been suggested over and over on this thread of waiting for 15 min before sampling then letting it reach room temp. My older measurements were all over the place but since I have started doing things correctly I am consistently .10 - .18 pH points lower than EZ3.0. And yes, it is a meter.

 

[ajdelange]

Spreadsheets use models and the models are fed malt data. The models are imperfect and the malt data is a best broadly representative of what you may find in your mash tun. Errors of 0.1 to 0.2 are to be expected. This is why you should depend on your pH meter and not your spreadsheet for control of mash pH.

A test mash is a great way to circumvent this shortcoming of spreadsheets. As far as pH estimation is concerned the crush shouldn't have much of an effect. For malt pH experiments I just put the grain in a blender.

 

[jusware]

I can't believe your LHBS won't crush grains. Who cares the amount as long as you buy them from them. I'd talk to the owner. If I lived by I'd gladly loan you my crusher.

 

[GUB]

Thanks for the advice. I plan on getting the grains next weekend and testing soon after so I'll put the results in here out of interest.

 

[GUB]

I can't believe your LHBS won't crush grains. Who cares the amount as long as you buy them from them. I'd talk to the owner. If I lived by I'd gladly loan you my crusher.

It is literally a handful of each type of grain and their crusher would eat that for breakfast, plus I wondered if it could be influenced by the residues in the crusher. It's no biggie.

 

[ResumeMan]

It is literally a handful of each type of grain and their crusher would eat that for breakfast, plus I wondered if it could be influenced by the residues in the crusher. It's no biggie.

Still, it's annoying that they won't accommodate you. If you're a regular customer they should bend over backwards to help out. But it is what it is.

As AJ said (repeatedly ) tossing the grain in a blender and giving it a single quick pulse should do what you need. Or if it's small enough, a quick shot in a coffee grinder would also work.