EZ Water Calculator 2.0

[kal]

Kal,

It sounds like a minor adjustment to the EZ Water pH algorithm may be needed. Bru'n Water has been calibrated, but more and better information is always welcome. If you haven't checked out Bru'n Water yet, you can download it from the link in my signature below.

Thanks - I'm sure it's great but frankly at this point in time I don't want to learn a new tool. I'm really happy with EZ Water. Other than the 0.2 pH issue it works exactly how I like and I basically ignore the pH anyway (it didn't exist in the first version). I only point out the 0.2 pH issue in case it helps the authors.

By the way, I really like your electric brewery. That's the direction I'll be going when my basement buildout is complete.

Thanks!

Kal

 

[nilo]

I will guess that the spreadsheet's estimated pH is at room temp and not mash temp - that would explain the shift I believe.

I use a calibrated PH meter (Milwaukee MW102) with samples at 25C, even though my PH meter is ATC from 0 to 70C.

Edit. I'm brewing a Blue Moon clone as I type this and my mash PH came EXACTLY 5.27 as predicted, taking 0.2 off the EZ calculation (EZ predicted 5.47).

 

[MNDan]

I use a calibrated PH meter (Milwaukee MW102) with samples at 25C, even though my PH meter is ATC from 0 to 70C.

Edit. I'm brewing a Blue Moon clone as I type this and my mash PH came EXACTLY 5.27 as predicted, taking 0.2 off the EZ calculation (EZ predicted 5.47).

5.27 at what temperature?

 

[nilo]

5.27 at what temperature?

My ph meter is atc

 

[remilard]

My ph meter is atc

While your previous post seemed clear (you measure at the 20C reference temperature), the actual pH of wort is lower at higher temperatures. ATC only corrects for the error due to how the electrode works. Your ATC probe should measure a couple tenths lower at 150F or so than at 75F.

 

[nilo]

My sample is always at 25C

 

[MNDan]

My sample is always at 25C

Interesting. Then, at least for that sample, the spreadsheet is off by at least .4 (5.27@65F ~= 5.0 at mash temp).

 

[remilard]

Interesting. Then, at least for that sample, the spreadsheet is off by at least .4 (5.27@65F ~= 5.0 at mash temp).

The spreadsheet is modelling reference temperature mash pH, not mash temperature mash pH (it is based on the assumption that pilsner malt produces a pH of ~ 5.8 in distilled water, which is at reference temp).

 

[wildwest450]

How would one account for flaked maize on this spreadsheet? Put it in with total grains, or just leave it off?

_

 

[remilard]

How would one account for flaked maize on this spreadsheet? Put it in with total grains, or just leave it off?

_

I made a beer with ~30% maize using the amount of acid malt I typically would for an all malt beer that was otherwise similar (replace the maize with more base malt) and the pH was a bit higher than I expected. I think I added around another ounce or two of acid malt for a 8-10 lb or so grain bill so it wasn't huge. On the other hand, the other maize beer I made since I had a pH meter (and this was longer ago) I don't think I had to make any adjustments. I was using tap water for everything then and now use RO for most beers so not apples to apples.

Absent better experience I would just pretend it is all malt and have some extra acid (and chalk) ready in case.

 

[wildwest450]

I made a beer with ~30% maize using the amount of acid malt I typically would for an all malt beer that was otherwise similar (replace the maize with more base malt) and the pH was a bit higher than I expected. I think I added around another ounce or two of acid malt for a 8-10 lb or so grain bill so it wasn't huge. On the other hand, the other maize beer I made since I had a pH meter (and this was longer ago) I don't think I had to make any adjustments. I was using tap water for everything then and now use RO for most beers so not apples to apples.

Absent better experience I would just pretend it is all malt and have some extra acid (and chalk) ready in case.

Sounds like a plan. This is an classic american lager, so I don't want to use acid malt if it can be helped. According to the spread sheet, I should be at 5.49 with my normal small calcium chloride and gypsum additions.

_

 

[aModestMouse]

The spreadsheet is modelling reference temperature mash pH, not mash temperature mash pH (it is based on the assumption that pilsner malt produces a pH of ~ 5.8 in distilled water, which is at reference temp).

so the pH the spreadsheet gives, is that a room temp?

 

[-TH-]

so the pH the spreadsheet gives, is that a room temp?

Yes. I added that to the spreadsheet now to be more clear. I also revised the recommended pH range as well.

 

[motobrewer]

5.4-5.7? i must be out of the loop, i thought we were shooting for 5.2?

 

[kal]

Interesting.

Is there no way to have the spreadsheet calculate the actual (measured) pH that people will be seeing? Everyone's been taught that a pH of 5.2 is ideal and try and target that value. With the desired range in the spreadsheet shown as "5.4-5.7" I think that would cause lots of questions, no?

I can see this and other EzWaterCalc threads being filled with the same question: "I thought we were supposed to target a pH of 5.2? Why does EzWater say the desired range is 5.4-5.7?"

Kal

 

[kal]

5.4-5.7? i must be out of the loop, i thought we were shooting for 5.2?

Ha! See what I mean?

Kal

 

[-TH-]

The key here is room temp vs. mash temp.

I've come to believe that the desired 5.2 mash pH that we've been taught is meant to be at mash temp. Since most of us, if not all, are measuring mash pH at room temp, we will see on our instruments a pH about .2 to .3 higher - i.e. 5.4 to 5.5. I also believe it is better to be a little on the high side rather than on the low side therefore the recommended range is 5.4 to 5.7.

Hope that helps...

 

[motobrewer]

lol!

well I don't measure anything, yet. So i just go by what it calculates.

I'm still confused, so we want a "room temp" pH of 5.2, which equates to a "mash temp" pH of 5.4? what temp does your spreadsheet calculate to? did it always calculate to "mash temp"? I thought it was calculating to "room temp"

 

[-TH-]

I'm still confused, so we want a "room temp" pH of 5.2, which equates to a "mash temp" pH of 5.4? what temp does your spreadsheet calculate to? did it always calculate to "mash temp"? I thought it was calculating to "room temp"

I think you have it backwards.

Room temp pH measures approx .2 to .3 higher than mash temp pH.

So, a pH of 5.2 at mash temp equates to a pH of about 5.4 to 5.5 at room temp. The spreadsheet estimates pH at room temp and that did not change. However I did change the recommended pH values because at room temp I believe it should be 5.4 to 5.7, not 5.2. For example if your pH measured 5.2 at room temp, that would mean a mash temp pH of about 4.9 and that would be too low IMO.

By the way there are varying opinions on what the ideal mash pH should be, even when compared at the same temp (whether it be room or mash temp). Feel free to investigate further.

 

[-TH-]

Ha! See what I mean?

Kal

Good call!

Hey Kal I was reading BYO mag at lunch today and I spotted your pics & write-up. Very cool!

 

[kal]

Thanks TH! They didn't print my Electric APA recipe unfortunately ... it's one of my favs! All water adjusted with EzWaterCalc of course!

Kal

 

[aModestMouse]

Yes. I added that to the spreadsheet now to be more clear. I also revised the recommended pH range as well.

my ph meter finally came in and here were my results:

68F - 4.74
Mash temp - 4.46

i used 100% distilled water and was brewing a ipa.. with all additions my estimated ph 4.42

 

[ajdelange]

I think you mean 5.74, 5.46 and 5.42. If not, something is definitely out of whack.

 

[jmf143]

I am adjusting my water for a Porter. I have the conflicting goals of 1) increasing my estimated mash ph and 2) increasing my calcium and magnesium (which drives my ph down if I add the salts to my mash tun, but not if I add them to my boil kettle). Is there any way to make the EZ Water tool reflect additions to the boil kettle but not to the mash other than including the additions on the spreadsheet to calculate the parts-per-million values and removing them to calculate the estimated mash ph?

 

[mabrungard]

Deleted

 

[jmf143]

Deleted

 

[kal]

You need to switch to Bru'n Water and then you will have to tool with which you can use Pickling Lime to add both alkalinity and calcium at the same time.

FWIW Martin, this is TH's official thread on his "product". It's poor taste to come into another person's official product thread and tell posters that they "need to" switch to your product instead (regardless of of the fact that both products are free and excellent).

Start your own thread, post your thoughts there, answer questions and let it speak for itself. Don't troll the "competition" as it's generally considered the wrong thing to do.

This is not generic water adjustment thread where people are asking generic questions. It's a thread specifically on the use of EZWaterCalculator 2.0.

Just my 2 cents!

Kal

 

[jmf143]

I find both tools helpful but can see your point Kal. I should have PM'ed Martin rather than posting in this thread.

 

[-TH-]

For those of you subscribed to this thread I thought I would tell you that EZ 3.0 is now available. I think you'll find it considerably more accurate in predicting mash pH and I think its even a little bit easier to use as well.

you can get it here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

 

[maida7]

For those of you subscribed to this thread I thought I would tell you that EZ 3.0 is now available. I think you'll find it considerably more accurate in predicting mash pH and I think its even a little bit easier to use as well.

you can get it here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

Thanks, I love your spreadsheet and use it for every batch. I think you have made a significant and important contribution to the home brewing community.