EZ Water Calculator 2.0

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kal

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Kal,

It sounds like a minor adjustment to the EZ Water pH algorithm may be needed. Bru'n Water has been calibrated, but more and better information is always welcome. If you haven't checked out Bru'n Water yet, you can download it from the link in my signature below.
Thanks - I'm sure it's great but frankly at this point in time I don't want to learn a new tool. ;) I'm really happy with EZ Water. Other than the 0.2 pH issue it works exactly how I like and I basically ignore the pH anyway (it didn't exist in the first version). I only point out the 0.2 pH issue in case it helps the authors.

By the way, I really like your electric brewery. That's the direction I'll be going when my basement buildout is complete.
Thanks!

Kal
 

nilo

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I will guess that the spreadsheet's estimated pH is at room temp and not mash temp - that would explain the shift I believe.
I use a calibrated PH meter (Milwaukee MW102) with samples at 25C, even though my PH meter is ATC from 0 to 70C.

Edit. I'm brewing a Blue Moon clone as I type this and my mash PH came EXACTLY 5.27 as predicted, taking 0.2 off the EZ calculation (EZ predicted 5.47).
 

MNDan

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I use a calibrated PH meter (Milwaukee MW102) with samples at 25C, even though my PH meter is ATC from 0 to 70C.

Edit. I'm brewing a Blue Moon clone as I type this and my mash PH came EXACTLY 5.27 as predicted, taking 0.2 off the EZ calculation (EZ predicted 5.47).
5.27 at what temperature?
 

remilard

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My ph meter is atc
While your previous post seemed clear (you measure at the 20C reference temperature), the actual pH of wort is lower at higher temperatures. ATC only corrects for the error due to how the electrode works. Your ATC probe should measure a couple tenths lower at 150F or so than at 75F.
 

remilard

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Interesting. Then, at least for that sample, the spreadsheet is off by at least .4 ([email protected] ~= 5.0 at mash temp).
The spreadsheet is modelling reference temperature mash pH, not mash temperature mash pH (it is based on the assumption that pilsner malt produces a pH of ~ 5.8 in distilled water, which is at reference temp).
 

wildwest450

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How would one account for flaked maize on this spreadsheet? Put it in with total grains, or just leave it off?

_
 

remilard

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How would one account for flaked maize on this spreadsheet? Put it in with total grains, or just leave it off?

_
I made a beer with ~30% maize using the amount of acid malt I typically would for an all malt beer that was otherwise similar (replace the maize with more base malt) and the pH was a bit higher than I expected. I think I added around another ounce or two of acid malt for a 8-10 lb or so grain bill so it wasn't huge. On the other hand, the other maize beer I made since I had a pH meter (and this was longer ago) I don't think I had to make any adjustments. I was using tap water for everything then and now use RO for most beers so not apples to apples.

Absent better experience I would just pretend it is all malt and have some extra acid (and chalk) ready in case.
 

wildwest450

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I made a beer with ~30% maize using the amount of acid malt I typically would for an all malt beer that was otherwise similar (replace the maize with more base malt) and the pH was a bit higher than I expected. I think I added around another ounce or two of acid malt for a 8-10 lb or so grain bill so it wasn't huge. On the other hand, the other maize beer I made since I had a pH meter (and this was longer ago) I don't think I had to make any adjustments. I was using tap water for everything then and now use RO for most beers so not apples to apples.

Absent better experience I would just pretend it is all malt and have some extra acid (and chalk) ready in case.

Sounds like a plan. This is an classic american lager, so I don't want to use acid malt if it can be helped. According to the spread sheet, I should be at 5.49 with my normal small calcium chloride and gypsum additions.

_
 

aModestMouse

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The spreadsheet is modelling reference temperature mash pH, not mash temperature mash pH (it is based on the assumption that pilsner malt produces a pH of ~ 5.8 in distilled water, which is at reference temp).
so the pH the spreadsheet gives, is that a room temp?
 

kal

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Interesting.

Is there no way to have the spreadsheet calculate the actual (measured) pH that people will be seeing? Everyone's been taught that a pH of 5.2 is ideal and try and target that value. With the desired range in the spreadsheet shown as "5.4-5.7" I think that would cause lots of questions, no?

I can see this and other EzWaterCalc threads being filled with the same question: "I thought we were supposed to target a pH of 5.2? Why does EzWater say the desired range is 5.4-5.7?" ;)

Kal
 
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-TH-

-TH-

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The key here is room temp vs. mash temp.

I've come to believe that the desired 5.2 mash pH that we've been taught is meant to be at mash temp. Since most of us, if not all, are measuring mash pH at room temp, we will see on our instruments a pH about .2 to .3 higher - i.e. 5.4 to 5.5. I also believe it is better to be a little on the high side rather than on the low side therefore the recommended range is 5.4 to 5.7.

Hope that helps...
 

motobrewer

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lol!

well I don't measure anything, yet. So i just go by what it calculates.

I'm still confused, so we want a "room temp" pH of 5.2, which equates to a "mash temp" pH of 5.4? what temp does your spreadsheet calculate to? did it always calculate to "mash temp"? I thought it was calculating to "room temp"
 
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-TH-

-TH-

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I'm still confused, so we want a "room temp" pH of 5.2, which equates to a "mash temp" pH of 5.4? what temp does your spreadsheet calculate to? did it always calculate to "mash temp"? I thought it was calculating to "room temp"
I think you have it backwards.

Room temp pH measures approx .2 to .3 higher than mash temp pH.

So, a pH of 5.2 at mash temp equates to a pH of about 5.4 to 5.5 at room temp. The spreadsheet estimates pH at room temp and that did not change. However I did change the recommended pH values because at room temp I believe it should be 5.4 to 5.7, not 5.2. For example if your pH measured 5.2 at room temp, that would mean a mash temp pH of about 4.9 and that would be too low IMO.

By the way there are varying opinions on what the ideal mash pH should be, even when compared at the same temp (whether it be room or mash temp). Feel free to investigate further.
 

kal

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Thanks TH! They didn't print my Electric APA recipe unfortunately ... it's one of my favs! All water adjusted with EzWaterCalc of course! :)

Kal
 

aModestMouse

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Yes. I added that to the spreadsheet now to be more clear. I also revised the recommended pH range as well.
my ph meter finally came in and here were my results:

68F - 4.74
Mash temp - 4.46

i used 100% distilled water and was brewing a ipa.. with all additions my estimated ph 4.42
 

jmf143

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I am adjusting my water for a Porter. I have the conflicting goals of 1) increasing my estimated mash ph and 2) increasing my calcium and magnesium (which drives my ph down if I add the salts to my mash tun, but not if I add them to my boil kettle). Is there any way to make the EZ Water tool reflect additions to the boil kettle but not to the mash other than including the additions on the spreadsheet to calculate the parts-per-million values and removing them to calculate the estimated mash ph?
 

kal

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You need to switch to Bru'n Water and then you will have to tool with which you can use Pickling Lime to add both alkalinity and calcium at the same time.
FWIW Martin, this is TH's official thread on his "product". It's poor taste to come into another person's official product thread and tell posters that they "need to" switch to your product instead (regardless of of the fact that both products are free and excellent).

Start your own thread, post your thoughts there, answer questions and let it speak for itself. Don't troll the "competition" as it's generally considered the wrong thing to do.

This is not generic water adjustment thread where people are asking generic questions. It's a thread specifically on the use of EZWaterCalculator 2.0.

Just my 2 cents!

Kal
 

jmf143

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I find both tools helpful but can see your point Kal. I should have PM'ed Martin rather than posting in this thread.
 
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-TH-

-TH-

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For those of you subscribed to this thread I thought I would tell you that EZ 3.0 is now available. I think you'll find it considerably more accurate in predicting mash pH and I think its even a little bit easier to use as well.

you can get it here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/
 

maida7

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For those of you subscribed to this thread I thought I would tell you that EZ 3.0 is now available. I think you'll find it considerably more accurate in predicting mash pH and I think its even a little bit easier to use as well.

you can get it here: http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/
Thanks, I love your spreadsheet and use it for every batch. I think you have made a significant and important contribution to the home brewing community.:mug:
 

weiht

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With all the talk about the ph variance between the spreadsheet n the measured at room temperature, I think it's like measuring ibu where it's abt adapting the calculation into ur process, kinda like using rager or tinseth and use it as a guide to give u an idea if what ur shooting for...

I think the spreadsheet is great, and the estimated ph calculations based on the malt bill is a excellent tool, one would be ignorant to think it wld be 100% accurate, but it's superb for giving me an idea of the ph it would be and the ballpark figure of salt additions I would need. I tried a few calculators and I find this to work best for me, simple and clear
 

deanocamino

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I have a question kind of pertaining to this spreadsheet and the subject. When I brought the spread sheet to another brewers attention. And said that after testing my results compared to the sheet, and it was accurate. He then stated that it did not account for water ph adjustment. I am assuming that he ment adjusting the waters profile to a certain place before mashing.

Why would you want to do that anyway if your biggest concern is the ph of the mash and making sure that it can handle all those different malts?

Unless you wanted to take you water compare it to palmers spread sheet make additions and then see were your ph is after you dough in. And then make more adjustments. That just seems like more work to me.

However I could be wrong on all accounts and be totally confused as I have only used the spread sheet once. So does someone want to hook a brother up with some info???
 

ajdelange

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With all the talk about the ph variance between the spreadsheet n the measured at room temperature, I think it's like measuring ibu where it's abt adapting the calculation into ur process, kinda like using rager or tinseth and use it as a guide to give u an idea if what ur shooting for...
That's exactly what it is like. In all the cases mentioned a simple mathematical model has been developed which enables one to predict, with variable accuracy, respectively beer bitterness and mash pH. Rager and Tinseth represent 2 different models and each of the spreadsheets/calculators has its own model. Some of the models are better than others. But it is not enough to have the model. You must have good values for the parameters which the models require.

There is one big difference between the IBU and mash pH situations. Few brewers can check on the accuracy of an IBU prediction whereas it is simple to do so with the pH models. This enables you to apply "english" to the spreadsheet or calculator based on your experience with it. E.g. - it may tend to predict pH's that are a 0.1 low for Pils and be just on for British ales.

I think the spreadsheet is great, and the estimated ph calculations based on the malt bill is a excellent tool, one would be ignorant to think it wld be 100% accurate, but it's superb for giving me an idea of the ph it would be and the ballpark figure of salt additions I would need.
If only everyone understood that!
 

DSmith

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On the topic of the EZ Water spreadsheet. Lactic acid additions seem to be applied to the mash volume only. Is this this way to do it for batch sparging?

I plan on making up all the water at once (keeping the final concentrations the same for mash and sparge water), but adding the lactic acid to the entire mash + sparge water doesn't seem to be what the consistent with the math within the spreadsheet...
 

remilard

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On the topic of the EZ Water spreadsheet. Lactic acid additions seem to be applied to the mash volume only. Is this this way to do it for batch sparging?

I plan on making up all the water at once (keeping the final concentrations the same for mash and sparge water), but adding the lactic acid to the entire mash + sparge water doesn't seem to be what the consistent with the math within the spreadsheet...
The spreadsheet models mash pH, and sparge water composition does not affect mash pH. As such, it makes perfect sense that the spreadsheet does not contemplate sparge water adjustment. That said, if you need to add acid to your mash water it would be prudent to add it to sparge water as well.
 

mabrungard

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On the topic of the EZ Water spreadsheet. Lactic acid additions seem to be applied to the mash volume only. Is this this way to do it for batch sparging?

I plan on making up all the water at once (keeping the final concentrations the same for mash and sparge water), but adding the lactic acid to the entire mash + sparge water doesn't seem to be what the consistent with the math within the spreadsheet...
The requirements for mash water and sparge water are not always the same. Sparge water should always have low alkalinity, mash water does not always have to have low alkalinity. EZ Water is properly focused on mash water adjustments.
 

deanocamino

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for those of you that use the ez calculator. According to palmers nomograph my water is best used for something around 10 srm. In making a stout I was thinking of using the nomograph to figure out what additions I need to make to get my "base" water profile to the appropriate levels for the given style.

Then enter that base into the "base water section" in the calculator and make addjust ments with additions from there.

Does this not make sence or do you think it is overkill????
 

ajdelange

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Unless dramatic changes have been made to that spreadsheet plugging in stout color will result in a calculated RA which is absurdly high. Implementing such an RA will result in a mash pH that is way too high with the result that the beer will be dull, flat, lifeless. If your water is decent you should be able to make a stout with it without treatment unless you use inordinate amounts of black/roast/crystal malt. It is therefore best that mash pH be checked with a pH meter at dough-in.

There is a correlation between beer color and the RA of the water with which it is made. There is a correlation between the performance of the DJIA and the length of girls' skirts. I wouldn't invest based on fashion and I wouldn't set brewing water parameters based on color.
 

Glot

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I have a very basic question I could not find the answer to. As grains etc alter pH, how does the calculator know what the initial water pH was?
 

ajdelange

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It doesn't and, to an almost unbelievable extent it doesn't need to. The object is to model the proton deficit of the water and most of the information about that is contained in the alkalinity number alone. For precise work the water pH does need to be considered but for the approximate/empirical models used in most spreadsheets the alkalinity alone suffices.
 

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