Extreme volume loss in primary

[phi481]

Hello all. I am new to the forum and have a question about fermentation. I recently took another stab at barley wine, my white whale. First time it clogged the airlock and repainted my closet a lovely shade of deep amber. This time I came prepared with a blow-off setup. It entered primary at 5 gallons. It came out at around 3.5 gallons. There was no overflow, no gunk in my blow-off assembly, no mess, nothing. I have no idea what happened to almost 3 gallons of wort. I left it in primary for 2 weeks due to the high gravity, but I don't see how that could have caused the loss. If anybody knows what happened please tell me. Is my barley wine ruined again?

 

[adworld]

ok fine I'll admit it, it was me and it was good!!

cheers

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

ok fine I'll admit it, it was me and it was good!!

cheers

d@mn, beat me to it.

what you've experienced there is trub loss. the proteins, yeast, hops, etc. take up space in your wort when they're suspended, after fermentation they fall out, and only the liquid remains. 1.5 gal is a lot of trub loss, but not unheard of. generally, i'll lose about a quart to a half gallon, so i plan my recipes accordingly. 5.25 gal in, ~5 gal back out. when transferring from kettle to fermenter, try to avoid, or strain out the bulk of the solids so that you're sending mostly liquid to the FV. i find bagging my hops and racking from kettle to fermenter while avoiding the bulk of the break material really helps cut down on how much trub you get.

 

[phi481]

That makes sense, but I lost over half of my volume. Even if I include the trub in the bottom of my fermenter I still have only around 3.5 gallons total. That just seems abnormal. Is there anything else you can think of that may have compounded the loss?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

That makes sense, but I lost over half of my volume. Even if I include the trub in the bottom of my fermenter I still have only around 3.5 gallons total. That just seems abnormal. Is there anything else you can think of that may have compounded the loss?

in the first post, you said it went in as 5 gal, came out 3.5, which is a lot (~1.5 gal), but not abnormal trub loss. if you started with 6.5 and ended up with 3.5 gal, that's a crazy amount of trub loss, maybe adworld really did get at your beer last night.

 

[sjbeerman]

You say you had 5 gal in and 3.5 gal out but then you say you lost 3 gal. 5-3.5 is 1.5 so where are you getting 3 gal lost? There is no way you can lose 3 gal to trub. Please clarify your original post.

 

[phi481]

Oops. Sorry about the horrible attempt at simple math. Its been a very long day. I think I'm just in shock from seeing the void at the top of my carboy. I'm attaching a picture of what I'm left with in a 5 gallon better bottle carboy. I used an ale pale for primary with a satellite fermentation to test gravity, so I didn't even notice the loss until I picked the fermenter up today to rack it to secondary. Does this seem normal?

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, the only way to have volume loss is via blow-off or some other active loss happening. Evaporation won't reduce the volume by that much with an airlock fitted in the carboy.

BTW, it's been discussed more than a few times and conventional wisdom is that 'satellite fermenters' to "test gravity" are pretty much useless. For one thing, you cannot know (with any measure) IF the amount of yeast in that tiny vessel is in correct proportion to the main fermenter. You will also get a different fermentation speed in the smaller vessel than in your fermenter. In the future, I wouldn't waste the wort with one, just use your brain and give the batch enough time. Check it when you think it's done, then check it again 3-4 days later to confirm.

Also, 2 weeks is super-short for a barley wine, unless it's a really low strength barley wine. Even IF it's done fermenting, chances are it will need time to mellow out the alcohol flavors into something you'll enjoy drinking. I have an imperial porter that I brewed about a year ago that's finally getting to the point where it's good to drink. That's at 9.7% ABV too.

When you racked out of the bucket primary, you could have left 1.5 gallons in there. Depending on how you racked and such. How much did you leave behind??

I typically account for trub/yeast cake loss when I brew a batch. For me, that means putting an extra 2-3 quarts of wort into primary so that I get my full 6 gallons out into my two 3 gallon kegs. Depending on what yeast you used, if you had given it more time, you could have collected more brew from the primary. I go at least 3-4 weeks in fermenter before moving to keg (or to an aging vessel when needed). This allows the yeast to really flocculate out, and make a tight cake in the bottom of my primary. The old ale I started over the weekend will be in primary for 4-8 weeks before getting moved to an aging vessel for some oak time (3-6 months there). I'll know, without looking at the airlock if it's actually done fermenting (thermowell with a digital thermometer with current/high/low readings displayed). The batch should hit somewhere in the 9% ABV range.

 

[adworld]

maybe adworld really did get at your beer last night.

you have no proof Nordeast... hiccup

 

[Golddiggie]

you have no proof Nordeast... hiccup

Stop bumping into things and trying to get funky with the family pet...

 

[phi481]

The instructions with my partial mash kit advised one week in primary then one month in secondary. I left it in a second week, but it seems like I should have left it in longer. I was afraid that if I didn't get it off the trub as quickly as possible that it would impart off flavors. The trub was far less "solid" than it has been in previous brews, so I think you might have nailed it. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Stauffbier]

Are you sure you started with 5 gallons? I lost a gallon to trub once. As a result I now make 6 gallon batches. I lose 1/2 gallon to the kettle and 1/4 to 1/2 gallon to the fermentor, so I end up with 5-5.25 gallons of clear beer on bottling day...

 

[Golddiggie]

The instructions with my partial mash kit advised one week in primary then one month in secondary. I left it in a second week, but it seems like I should have left it in longer. I was afraid that if I didn't get it off the trub as quickly as possible that it would impart off flavors. The trub was far less "solid" than it has been in previous brews, so I think you might have nailed it. Thanks for the advice.

I simply hate how those instructions (it's very common on them) have you move a brew long before it's ready. You could have easily gone 4-6 weeks in primary without any issue at all. Then, upon sampling it (before racking it anywhere) you could have decided if it was ready for bottles, needed more time in primary, you wanted to move it to a brite tank, or maybe rack it onto some oak to get what that gives a brew. IMO, rushing a brew is never a good thing. You should move it when it's ready, not a moment before. Imposing human time periods upon a batch, for doing things to it, is very often how you don't get what you were hoping for.

I suggest, next time, either formulate your own recipe, or toss the instructions after it has you pitch the yeast. Or at the very least, ignore any racking before the batch is done fermenting. IF you want to age it, then that's good. But, racking before it's done, IMO/IME will not give you anything better and very well could give you a lesser result.

 

[TimTrone]

I simply hate how those instructions (it's very common on them) have you move a brew long before it's ready. You could have easily gone 4-6 weeks in primary without any issue at all. Then, upon sampling it (before racking it anywhere) you could have decided if it was ready for bottles, needed more time in primary, you wanted to move it to a brite tank, or maybe rack it onto some oak to get what that gives a brew. IMO, rushing a brew is never a good thing. You should move it when it's ready, not a moment before. Imposing human time periods upon a batch, for doing things to it, is very often how you don't get what you were hoping for.

I suggest, next time, either formulate your own recipe, or toss the instructions after it has you pitch the yeast. Or at the very least, ignore any racking before the batch is done fermenting. IF you want to age it, then that's good. But, racking before it's done, IMO/IME will not give you anything better and very well could give you a lesser result.

Please yes!

People don't want to give to beer what it wants.......time.

Let it chill on the yeast cake for a month doing its thing. Yeast has been fermenting much much longer than any of us have been.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

you have no proof Nordeast... hiccup

i know, i'm just jealous that you got a free 18 pack of brew outta the deal.


golddiggle makes a great point. if the yeast cake isn't dense and packed the way it should be after a few or more weeks, it'll be holding more liquid. liquid you can't get to without racking part of the cake over. that combined with not taking into consideration the volume loss from the grub itself could easily cost you that amount of beer. next time minimize the amount of solids that make it into the fermenter, and make sure to account for 2-4 quarts of trub loss in your batch size. for now, you still have 3.5 gallons of good beer, so chalk this up to a learning experience and you'll know what to expect with the next brew.

 

[phi481]

Thanks much!

 

[terrapinj]

did you notice 1 1/2gal in your primary bucket after racking? Can't imagine that you wouldn't notice leaving such a high volume behind

 

[SwampassJ]

I know this might sound ******* but are you absolutely sure it went in as 5+ gallons? Did you need to top off to reach that amount and forget? Or was the 5 gallons the amount before the boil started?

 

[phi481]

I topped it off to 5 gallons. When i racked it to secondary there was about two inches of slurry in the bottom of the fermenter. I used a blow off tube ending in a bucket of sanitizer that was perfectly clear when i removed it. This is why i am so perplexed.

 

[terrapinj]

i know some volume labels on buckets can be off - perhaps the marking is lower than 5gal

2" of slurry is not an abnormal amount

 

[Stauffbier]

Being a barleywine I wouldn't be surprised if it was still fermenting and you still had yeast and trub in suspension. If you leave it in the primary a bit longer the cake will pack down tighter and you'll get more liquid out of the batch. Do you use whirlfloc or irish moss or anything like that? Also, I'm wondering what your OG was and what was the gravity when you racked to secondary?

 

[GRBC]

Since it is a better bottle, check the bottom for a stress crack and a slow leak. (smell the carpet?) I have had two of mine crack.

 

[Stauffbier]

Since it is a better bottle, check the bottom for a stress crack and a slow leak. (smell the carpet?) I have had two of mine crack.

He said he started with 5 gallons in his primary and left 2 inches of trub behind when he racked to secondary. 2 inches of trub is likely 1-1.5 gallons he lost during racking, so the fact that he ended up with 3.5 - 4 gallons in his secondary makes sense. I doubt if a cracked better bottle is the problem, although I'm sure it happens.

 

[GRBC]

He said he started with 5 gallons in his primary and left 2 inches of trub behind when he racked to secondary. 2 inches of trub is likely 1-1.5 gallons he lost during racking, so the fact that he ended up with 3.5 - 4 gallons in his secondary makes sense. I doubt if a cracked better bottle is the problem, although I'm sure it happens.

Right. I need go read more carefully. Didn't see that this was after racking to secondary.