Extract Brewing Produces Overly Sweet Beers?

[ListerH]

Whenever I brew with extract, I seem to be always slightly disappointed by the residual sweetness.
I am not detecting off flavors like diacetyl and am putting the sweetness down to something more fundamental... but I can't seem to nail it down!
This seems to transcend styles and recipes from lagers all the way through to DIPAs, with both liquid and dry extract. I typically try to use the lightest extracts that I can and use the steeping grains for color and flavor.

In terms of the factors influencing this...
- Mash Temp - I am thinking this isn't going to be a huge factor given the percentage of steeping grain in the bills... even when mashing low, I still seem to have the sweetness problem
- Yeast Attenuation - I am tending to hit my targets in terms of FG and I am thinking therefore that pitching rates, choice of yeast, temperature control is not so much the issue.
- Water - This is something I am not overly scientific about. I tend to brew with bottled spring water with no additives - could this be a factor?
- I moved down from 5GL batches to 2.5GL after (I like the variety of having smaller batches of a few different beers). Is it possible that as I scaled down, I get a lower isomerization of alpha acids and am just not hitting my IBU numbers? I'm not sure why this would be but open to any suggestions!

Am I missing something really obvious here? I am sure I am not the first or the last to have this experience...

I might add that I am probably a little critical of my own brews (as many of us are)… and others don't tend to pick up on the sweetness so much... it's just that I know what I'm trying to achieve and I cant quite hit it!

 

[RPh_Guy]

I tend to brew with bottled spring water with no additives - could this be a factor?

Yes. Water profile can affect the perception of sweetness vs dryness.
Unfortunately with extract beer you are at the mercy of the extract manufactures.
I would suggest using RO or distilled water since spring water has a lot of minerals and you don't know what they are.
You can also try adding some gypsum which will increase perceived dryness.

Is it possible that as I scaled down, I get a lower isomerization of alpha acids and am just not hitting my IBU numbers?

Calculated IBU is just a ballpark estimate. I'd suggest adjusting the bitterness by taste if you are already familiar with the recipe.

Am I missing something really obvious here?

Adding sugar or amylase enzyme can increase dryness. Either might be worth an experiment if all else fails.

You may also think about using a yeast with higher attenuation and/or use a nutrient, pitch rate, and temperature schedule to try to coax higher attenuation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I might add that I am probably a little critical of my own brews (as many of us are)… and others don't tend to pick up on the sweetness so much... it's just that I know what I'm trying to achieve and I cant quite hit it!

I know some people who also pick up on a sweetness with extract. They moved rapidly to some type of "all-grain" brewing.

As for brewing salts with extract+steep recipes, it can be a "season to taste" approach. I've brewed a couple of "Hop Sampler" batches where I added small amounts of gypsum. If you need an authoritative reference, I'll offer the section titled "Adding brewing Salts to Season Your Beer" in chapter 8 ("Water for Extract Brewing") in How to Brew, 4e.

 

[GHBWNY]

When I started brewing, I used extract kits. The beer always had what can only be described as an "extract-y taste"; I figured it was just the nature of the beast. However, I would always top off the fermenter to EXACTLY 5 gal, because that's what the instructions said to do. Eventually, I realized that my post-ferm volume of rack-able beer was ~4.75 gal, resulting in a 5% more-concentrated beer than it should have been --- which, if not contributing to, at least exacerbated the "extract-y taste". Although I don't do extract kits anymore, I now top off to ~5.25 gal for a 5 gal batch of harvestable beer, and whether it's a matter of having switched to AG or not, the results are noticeably more pleasing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"extract-y taste"

OP mentioned "sweet", not "extract-y" taste: "I seem to be always slightly disappointed by the residual sweetness".

If someone could come up with a set of 'real world' flavor descriptors for "extract-y" (bonus points for "extract twang") that would be helpful. For example: "toasted sour dough bread", "tangerine", "Honeydew melon", "friutty pebbles", "almond milk". These would be experiences I can go to a store, buy, and understand.

 

[Kwitty]

I noticed old extract (mainly liquid) had a taste I only got from extract. Get as fresh as you can. If there's not a date don't buy it! Also all extract changes from one manufacturer to another. Try a few brands. Been out of the extract brewing for a bit but L.D. Carlson products I remember giving me deicent results. You are at the mercy of who made the malt. You may need to cheat a bit. Try adding sugar to dry it out a touch, or maybe a bit more bittering hops. You could also play with water chemistry, but I don't know as much about that. However if you want total control over the sweet/dry battle you'll just have to go all grain. The question is what do you want and how far will you go.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Unfortunately with extract beer you are at the mercy of the extract manufactures.

. You are at the mercy of who made the malt.

How is this different from all-grain brewers being "at the mercy" of those who make base malts?

 

[Kwitty]

How is this different from all-grain brewers being "at the mercy" of those who make base malts?

The maltsters can make a difference too. However you can adjust your mash temp, length pH, salts, you can add enzymes, you can convert corn and rice too. While yes the maltster makes a difference you can then take that a tweak it to your liking. With extract you give up that control.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

However you can adjust your mash temp, length pH, salts, you can add enzymes, you can convert corn and rice too.

With extract, I can add enzymes, I can add salts, I can adjust pH. Granted, extract doesn't have diastatic power (neither does crystal or roasted malts), but I can either add enzymes or do a partial mash to convert corn and rice.

I'm still not seeing where I'm 'at the mercy' of the manufacturer when I use extract malts.

 

[Kwitty]

With extract, I can add enzymes, I can add salts, I can adjust pH. Granted, extract doesn't have diastatic power (neither does crystal or roasted malts), but I can either add enzymes or do a partial mash to convert corn and rice.

I'm still not seeing where I'm 'at the mercy' of the manufacturer when I use extract malts.

Because the malt already is what it is. Additional enzymes won't convert more starches. You can't adjust temp to make the sugar more or less fermentable. Adjusting pH at that point only affects the boil and ferment not the mash. (with the exception of the mini mash) Adjusting anything at this point won't change the properties of when the extract was a mash. It is what it is. I guess you could add enzymes to a mini mash of corn or rice, but the enzymes would have had an affect on the malt mash too. While you can tweak a bit, extract is just a little less versitile. I'm not against extract. I've had some excelent extract beer! I've even made enty myself. You just need to play to it's limitations.

 

[Lefou]

The lingering sweetness of extracts can be traced to dextrinization and the Maillard process as the sugars change during the boil off of water. Like others say you can add a drying adjunct (honey or table sugar) as a partial additive to the beer to dilute the dextrins.

 

[Diomed12]

I make 2 to 3 gallon extract brews regularly and have not had a residual sweetness problem. My process is that I cold steep all specialty grains, meaning that crystal and roasted grains are put in a mesh bag and steeped in 2qt/lb of water for about 24 hours at room temperature. For the extract itself, I only use dried malt extract and at that I go with pilsner or wheat as my intention is to complement with specialty grains to achieve color and/or flavor. On my brew day, I add the DME at the hottest setting from my kitchen faucet, bring to a boil and hop per my recipe, and then let the wort rest for 30 minutes following the boil to drop to about 165F. During the 30 minute rest, I pour my specialty grain steeping liquid into the fermenter and then rack the wort onto steeping liquid, allowing the entire mixture to air cool until I pitch yeast about 12 hours later.

Granted, my process uses a stainless steel fermenter given the no-chill method. If I didn't have a stainless fermenter, I would add steeping liquid to the kettle after the 30 minute rest to achieve 165F, wait another 10 minutes after incorporating the cold steep liquid, and then chill before racking to primary.

The problems that I have noted from this process are: 1) without the use of wheat DME or a dextrin malt the head retention can be a little lackluster, 2) Belgian yeast fermented beers seem to be lacking in the yeast phenolics compared to my all grain beers for which I use a ferulic acid rest. The IPAs, pale ales, and brown ales that I have made with this method turn out well even without water adjustments.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... need to play to it's limitations.

From my perspective, it's not about 'playing to it's limitations', it's not about 'lack of control' or 'being at the mercy' of the manufacturer. It's about knowing the characteristics of the ingredients and using the right ingredient for the beer I have in mind.

 

[Kwitty]

From my perspective, it's not about 'playing to it's limitations', it's not about 'lack of control' or 'being at the mercy' of the manufacturer. It's about knowing the characteristics of the ingredients and using the right ingredient for the beer I have in mind.

That's the same thing, just worded differently. I'm sorry if I touched a nerve here. However a "characteristic" of malt extract is its limitations set by the company creating the extract. That is precisely why you have less control. You ARE at the mercy of their process. A process that you can only change by all grain brewing. You could try another brand of extract, but you are still locked to the manufacturer. Whatever water chemistry or mash temp they use is what you use. You can adjust your process for mini mash, boil, and ferment but the extract is still whatever they decided. Again, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. Extract is a fine way to brew. Wonderful award winning beer is made every day with extract. I extract brewed for several years and still do from time to time. But extract is not as versatile as all grain.

 

[Pkrd]

- Yeast Attenuation - I am tending to hit my targets in terms of FG and I am thinking therefore that pitching rates, choice of yeast, temperature control is not so much the issue.

Extract brews do tend to finish higher. What are your numbers?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

You ARE at the mercy of their process.

When I design a recipe, I choose an ingredient to meet a need. I'm in control of the beers that I make - whether it's extract+steep or BIAB.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How is this different from all-grain brewers being "at the mercy" of those who make base malts?

The extract manufacturer presumably used water with minerals -- certain levels of sodium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, calcium, and bicarbonate.
You don't know what the levels are and you can't reduce whatever minerals are there.

On the other hand, with all grain I start with essentially no minerals and build my own water profile to suit the style and my taste.

 

[HTH1975]

Extract does have a tendency to finish and bit sweet. It’s easy enough to add sugar to dry out the beer, and use a yeast with decent attenuation.

Or just increase the IBUs to balance it out, maybe add some gypsum to the boil to emphasise the bitterness.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

When I started brewing, I used extract kits. The beer always had what can only be described as an "extract-y taste"; I figured it was just the nature of the beast. However, I would always top off the fermenter to EXACTLY 5 gal, because that's what the instructions said to do. Eventually, I realized that my post-ferm volume of rack-able beer was ~4.75 gal, resulting in a 5% more-concentrated beer than it should have been --- which, if not contributing to, at least exacerbated the "extract-y taste". Although I don't do extract kits anymore, I now top off to ~5.25 gal for a 5 gal batch of harvestable beer, and whether it's a matter of having switched to AG or not, the results are noticeably more pleasing.

I always topped off to get to the target OG and didn't get too worked up about volume. I figured that was producing the beer as intended by the recipe. I haven't brewed extract since the 90's.

 

[Sadu]

The extract manufacturer presumably used water with minerals -- certain levels of sodium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, calcium, and bicarbonate.
You don't know what the levels are and you can't reduce whatever minerals are there.

On the other hand, with all grain I start with essentially no minerals and build my own water profile to suit the style and my taste.

I think the lack of control thing is MUCH less than people assume it is.

Sure you don't know what exact water profile was used, but it's safe to assume that with unhopped base malt extracts they aren't doing anything crazy. I'd expect that all extract manufacturers start by filtering everything out then build back up to a modest profile (max 50ppm calcium, balanced chloride / sulfate, low sodium / magnesium). They also know that the customer's water contains minerals so they will be erring on the low side with everything. There's no way you are getting 300ppm sulfate or 50ppm sodium in a plain 2-row or lager malt extract.

So you can totally build your profile back up again within the margin of error for whatever style you are targeting, if you want to.

In a hopped IPA kit ok sure you have absolutely no idea what the water profile is, but then that product isn't designed for the recipe-builder market.

Hop additions and fermentation conditions are exactly the same as all-grain.

Fermentability can be controlled by choosing a more fermentable extract (these exist), or partial-mashing a portion of the brew to steer the fermentability in the direction you want.

Adjuncts and malts that aren't readily available as extract (like oats, rye, smoked malt) can be incorporated into recipes via partial mash so long as the percentage is reasonable.

It all comes down to choosing the right ingredients and process for what you want but the actual limitations of extract brewing are very few.

 

[kh54s10]

I think that there is something to "extract twang". I don't know what causes it. It seems some are more sensitive to it. I also believe that procedures of brewing will accentuate it. I have personally, never experienced it. My few extract batches were pretty much the same as my all grain. Since I have never brewed a recipe exactly the same twice, I cannot say whether an extract was "sweeter". Probably they were "different".

I would go along with trying to dry out the recipe with some sugar, and selecting a high attenuating yeast.

 

[kh54s10]

I think the lack of control thing is MUCH less than people assume it is.

Sure you don't know what exact water profile was used, but it's safe to assume that with unhopped base malt extracts they aren't doing anything crazy. I'd expect that all extract manufacturers start by filtering everything out then build back up to a modest profile (max 50ppm calcium, balanced chloride / sulfate, low sodium / magnesium). They also know that the customer's water contains minerals so they will be erring on the low side with everything. There's no way you are getting 300ppm sulfate or 50ppm sodium in a plain 2-row or lager malt extract.

So you can totally build your profile back up again within the margin of error for whatever style you are targeting, if you want to.

In a hopped IPA kit ok sure you have absolutely no idea what the water profile is, but then that product isn't designed for the recipe-builder market.

Hop additions and fermentation conditions are exactly the same as all-grain.

Fermentability can be controlled by choosing a more fermentable extract (these exist), or partial-mashing a portion of the brew to steer the fermentability in the direction you want.

Adjuncts and malts that aren't readily available as extract (like oats, rye, smoked malt) can be incorporated into recipes via partial mash so long as the percentage is reasonable.

It all comes down to choosing the right ingredients and process for what you want but the actual limitations of extract brewing are very few.

What you don't know is the ingredients that went into making the extract. I don't think even "base malt" extracts are only one malt. There may be basic 2 row and some crystal or caramel added. Especially when buying something like "Golden Extract", what went into it to make it "Golden"??

You can counter this somewhat by always using the same light extract, then using specialty grains for flavor and color. But you are still starting off with a bit of an unknown.

 

[Kwitty]

The extract manufacturer presumably used water with minerals -- certain levels of sodium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, calcium, and bicarbonate.
You don't know what the levels are and you can't reduce whatever minerals are there.

On the other hand, with all grain I start with essentially no minerals and build my own water profile to suit the style and my taste.

Thank you! This is all I'm saying! You can't change the properties of the mash used by the extract manufacturer.

 

[Sadu]

What you don't know is the ingredients that went into making the extract. I don't think even "base malt" extracts are only one malt. There may be basic 2 row and some crystal or caramel added. Especially when buying something like "Golden Extract", what went into it to make it "Golden"??.

Yeah, I guess I'm lucky in that our local extract manufacturer (Black Rock) lists all that on their website. Their Golden kit looks like this...

IBU: 27
SRM: 6
Malt: 74% Ale, 13.6% Lager, 12% Caramalt, 0.4% Roasted malt
Hops, bittering: Green Bullet, Pacific Gem

Plenty of information there to build a recipe around. Roast malt could be anything, but it's enough to work with.

I agree that I probably wouldn't go there without knowing at least basic info on what was in the extract.

 

[kh54s10]

Yeah, I guess I'm lucky in that our local extract manufacturer (Black Rock) lists all that on their website. Their Golden kit looks like this...

IBU: 27
SRM: 6
Malt: 74% Ale, 13.6% Lager, 12% Caramalt, 0.4% Roasted malt
Hops, bittering: Green Bullet, Pacific Gem

Plenty of information there to build a recipe around. Roast malt could be anything, but it's enough to work with.

I agree that I probably wouldn't go there without knowing at least basic info on what was in the extract.

Your definition of what you "know" is different from mine. Malt 74% - What malt? Ale 13.6% - What is that? Roasted malt - as you said could be anything. And you have hops. I never buy hopped extracts.

 

[Kwitty]

I think the lack of control thing is MUCH less than people assume it is.

Sure you don't know what exact water profile was used, but it's safe to assume that with unhopped base malt extracts they aren't doing anything crazy. I'd expect that all extract manufacturers start by filtering everything out then build back up to a modest profile (max 50ppm calcium, balanced chloride / sulfate, low sodium / magnesium). They also know that the customer's water contains minerals so they will be erring on the low side with everything. There's no way you are getting 300ppm sulfate or 50ppm sodium in a plain 2-row or lager malt extract.

So you can totally build your profile back up again within the margin of error for whatever style you are targeting, if you want to.

In a hopped IPA kit ok sure you have absolutely no idea what the water profile is, but then that product isn't designed for the recipe-builder market.

Hop additions and fermentation conditions are exactly the same as all-grain.

Fermentability can be controlled by choosing a more fermentable extract (these exist), or partial-mashing a portion of the brew to steer the fermentability in the direction you want.

Adjuncts and malts that aren't readily available as extract (like oats, rye, smoked malt) can be incorporated into recipes via partial mash so long as the percentage is reasonable.

It all comes down to choosing the right ingredients and process for what you want but the actual limitations of extract brewing are very few.

100% true. I agree with everything you said. But you have to change extract to change the mash profile of that ingredient. Adding those minerals only affect the boil and ferment. The extract doesn't change unless you change the ingredient. To me if you can't affect change on the ingredient it is not as versatile as one you can. At that point you can build around it to change the beer in other ways. But the extract is still what the manufacturer made and you can't change that.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sure you don't know what exact water profile was used, but it's safe to assume that with unhopped base malt extracts they aren't doing anything crazy. I'd expect that all extract manufacturers start by filtering everything out then build back up to a modest profile (max 50ppm calcium, balanced chloride / sulfate, low sodium / magnesium). They also know that the customer's water contains minerals so they will be erring on the low side with everything. There's no way you are getting 300ppm sulfate or 50ppm sodium in a plain 2-row or lager malt extract.

That's a lot of assumptions.

 

[kevin58]

You could inch your way toward all grain without going full blown all grain by using a partial mash technique. Use more crushed grain in your recipe and mash them on the stove top (or in your oven to better control temps). This will allow you to use a bit less extract. Using dry instead of liquid extract should help too.

 

[Sadu]

Your definition of what you "know" is different from mine. Malt 74% - What malt? Ale 13.6% - What is that? Roasted malt - as you said could be anything. And you have hops. I never buy hopped extracts.

I think you've read my post wrong. It says "74% ale malt". In New Zealand anyway, "ale malt" means the English style base malt as opposed to US style 2-row / pale malt. I think Americans call this "pale ale malt".

Anyway, my point is that this is a known ingredient.

The only confusing thing here is "roasted malt" which could either mean black malt or roast barley. It won't be chocolate malt because they use that term specifically on other recipes.

So you're splitting hairs over whether 0.4% of the recipe is roast barley or black malt?

I don't usually buy hopped extracts either, I just picked the golden ale product since that was the example you'd started with earlier.

 

[Sadu]

That's a lot of assumptions.

True, but that is the case for many all-grain brewers too. If you use RO water you have a reliable starting point. But everyone else is assuming their water hasn't changed since the last water report. My last water report said sulfate was 0-50ppm which is a pretty wide range.

Luckily water additions have pretty wide tolerances, and even if you have a sensitive palate you just dial it in for your own tastes over several batches. I've managed to dial my all grain pale ale sulfate levels to where I like them despite the big variance in my water report.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The extract manufacturer presumably used water with minerals -- certain levels of sodium, magnesium, chloride, sulfate, calcium, and bicarbonate.
You don't know what the levels are and you can't reduce whatever minerals are there.

This is well known. "Adding brewing Salts to Season Your Beer" in chapter 8 ("Water for Extract Brewing") in How to Brew, 4e offers a number of ideas on how to approach brewing salts with extract.

Granted, I can't change the mineral composition provided by the extract (or the mineral composition in the base malts), but I can change the mineral composition of my wort.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What you don't know is the ingredients that went into making the extract. I don't think even "base malt" extracts are only one malt. There may be basic 2 row and some crystal or caramel added. Especially when buying something like "Golden Extract", what went into it to make it "Golden"??

You can counter this somewhat by always using the same light extract, then using specialty grains for flavor and color. But you are still starting off with a bit of an unknown.

FWIW, Briess makes much of this information available at their web site and in some of their blog posts. I suspect that, for many people, it's enough information for them to continue to brew to the strengths of extract+steep and BIAB when flexibility in wort creation is necessary.

 

[kh54s10]

FWIW, Briess makes much of this information available at their web site and in some of their blog posts. I suspect that, for many people, it's enough information for them to continue to brew to the strengths of extract+steep and BIAB when flexibility in wort creation is necessary.

I guess it depends on how much you really want to know about the ingredients. Breiss states "base malt" that leaves things wide open. As US 2 row is a base malt. Pale ale malt is a base malt. Maris Otter is a base malt. The list goes on.

From their list. I suppose they could be using any one of these:

• Brewers

• Synergy Select Pilsen

• Pilsen

• Full Pint

• Pale Ale

• Goldpils® Vienna Malt

• Ashburne® Mild Malt

 

[kh54s10]

I think you've read my post wrong. It says "74% ale malt". In New Zealand anyway, "ale malt" means the English style base malt as opposed to US style 2-row / pale malt. I think Americans call this "pale ale malt".

Anyway, my point is that this is a known ingredient.

The only confusing thing here is "roasted malt" which could either mean black malt or roast barley. It won't be chocolate malt because they use that term specifically on other recipes.

So you're splitting hairs over whether 0.4% of the recipe is roast barley or black malt?

I don't usually buy hopped extracts either, I just picked the golden ale product since that was the example you'd started with earlier.

Pale ale malt... From what maltster? There are differences, admittedly minor differences.

 

[balrog]

Their Golden kit looks like this...
IBU: 27
SRM: 6
Malt: 74% Ale, 13.6% Lager, 12% Caramalt, 0.4% Roasted malt
Hops, bittering: Green Bullet, Pacific Gem

Plenty of information there to build a recipe around.

One thing I've not seen mentioned is the process used by manufacturer of the malt -- specifically the mash temp which creates the fermentability profile of short and longer chain sugars. We have to presume they mashed at 152-4°F but 148° vs 158° difference will produce dryer/sweeter beer depending on the yeast's ability to go after longer chain sugars of the higher mash temps.

 

[Sadu]

Pale ale malt... From what maltster? There are differences, admittedly minor differences.

In this case it's Malteurop, I think I had to ask to find that out but it's not a trade secret or anything.

Likewise with Breiss being an American company (I think?) would it not be a safe bet to assume that "base malt" means American 2-row? Seems logical. You could always fire them an enquiry if it wasn't clear.

So ok maybe you have less choice on brands of base malt when it comes to extract brewing, I'll cede you that one. Specialties are totally under your control of course, if you want that control.

 

[kh54s10]

In this case it's Malteurop, I think I had to ask to find that out but it's not a trade secret or anything.

Likewise with Breiss being an American company (I think?) would it not be a safe bet to assume that "base malt" means American 2-row? Seems logical. You could always fire them an enquiry if it wasn't clear.

So ok maybe you have less choice on brands of base malt when it comes to extract brewing, I'll cede you that one. Specialties are totally under your control of course, if you want that control.

It's cool. It is all to degrees of control. I used kits from Northern Brewer. I believe they make their own liquid extract. I haven't seen where they list the ingredients of the extracts, and don't really care enough to ask. I went to all grain more for cost savings of buying in bulk than ingredient control. I also substitute malts for whatever I have on hand or something cheap, so having control doesn't mean I always use the malt a recipe calls for.

Some of my better recipes came when I was using up leftovers.....

 

[Sadu]

I went to all grain more for cost savings of buying in bulk than ingredient control. I also substitute malts for whatever I have on hand or something cheap, so having control doesn't mean I always use the malt a recipe calls for.
Some of my better recipes came when I was using up leftovers.....

Agree with all of that. I guess my point is that extract brewing doesn't limit your control like many people assume that it does.

I started off with a few average (if we're being generous) extract brews, then went all-grain and started making good beer. Last year I won a big pile of extract product in a comp and that got me started on the extract path again. What surprised me straight away was that I didn't feel I'd lost any control over the recipe - in the places that matter.

I think your original point about the Golden LME is valid. If you don't know the breakdown of the ingredients in a product then it's basically worthless in terms of building recipes around. Extract is way too expensive to be doing blind leaps of faith and hoping it comes out balanced. But if you know what is inside then you can choose an appropriate extract product and use steeping grains / partial mash to round out the recipe to where you want it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, Briess makes much of this information available at their web site and in some of their blog posts. I suspect that, for many people, it's enough information for them to continue to brew to the strengths of extract+steep and BIAB when flexibility in wort creation is necessary.

I guess it depends on how much you really want to know about the ingredients.

Agreed.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think your [@kh54s10] original point about the Golden LME is valid. If you don't know the breakdown of the ingredients in a product then it's basically worthless in terms of building recipes around.

I'm comfortable with my anecdotal experiences and I am comfortable with using Briess "Golden" DME as a good flavor approximation for brewers malt or "two row".

Granted, it's not "rigorous brewing science". But the result is tasty.